Top bar to Long Deep question

[Bettenham]

Thanks everyone for comments on the original post. I think I have things a little straighter in my mind!
I will be modifying the tbhs. I built them from 30mm Douglas fir and they haven't warped or otherwise deteriorated at all. There is 4 - 6 inches of celotex in the roof (it slants!) and I add 30mm of celotex to the outside in Autumn. So far so good this winter and bees flying and bringing in pollen (light yellow, deeper yellow and a little bright orange) today.
The supers will have to wait for another day - I want to see how they get on this year in the long deep version. It means a modification to the roof which is hinged at the moment and I just won't have time, and yes - they are not good beginner hives imho. They are quite tricky! Having said that they certainly teach you how to handle frames gently - it's not a nice experience when a comb breaks off, especially if it's brood!!!
I came across a thread on here that details the cut and shut process for fitting the tbh bars into the frames (thank you madasafish) so will be working along those lines early spring.
Wish me luck!
I'll report back the results.

 

[little_john]

the 'Kenyan' top bar hive was designed by Eva Crane and Peter Paterson for use in Africa (funnily enough) and was loosely based on rudimentary traditional 'top bar' hives that Eva had seen on her travels.

Not quite ...
It was Treadwell and Patterson who initially designed this horizontal hive, which was later adopted by Kenyan students studying under Prof. Geoff Townsend at the University of Guelph, Canada. They were considered suitable as start-up hives for economically depressed Kenyans with only hand tools and minimal resources. Townsend went on to write a paper entitled "Beehive Designs for the Tropics" - a copy of which can be found online - if not, I'll happily post a copy here.

Like many, I once tried a KTBH but quickly discovered it's limitations. It was duly converted into a dual-colony deep long hive dimensioned for 14x12 frames. This was to prove reasonably successful, but was eventually cut in half to produce a pair of 16-frame hives which are still in use today. They would certainly benefit from a single layer of shallow supers, but are in all other respects totally satisfactory. I no longer use divided hives of any type.
'best,
LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It was Treadwell and Patterson who initially designed this horizontal hive

with input from Eva Crane - the three met at the NHS in 1964
See the foreword to the IBRA Tropical Agriculturalist - Beekeeping written by Patterson and also his book 'Beekeeping in Tropical Africa'
where he gives credit to them for their input, in his own words:

It was during a coffee break at the 1964 National Honey Show at Caxton Hall that Tredwell And Eva Crane conceived the idea of the forerunner of the Kenya top bar hive. Later, Cosburn helped me build and test a successful prototype at Sparsholt

He worked closely with the Canadian International Development Agency and with the university of Guelph (he worked on a bee farm in Canada for a while) on beekeeping projects both in Canada and Kenya

 

[madasafish]

I converted TBHs to Langstroths/Nationals in 2014/5 when I saw the light.
Just attach TBH bars - to a frame - using either screws or cable ties.
Remove any excess length wood on TBH bars using hand held loppers. (another helper makes it easier or use a portable workbench as a vice -my 40 years old B&D Workmate was ideal).
Trim excess comb using sharp secateurs or a kitchen knife.
Choose a warm not windy sunny day at least 15C.

You must be prepared for spilled honey and possible robbing as a result. (Don't ask).

Edit: Think through all steps before you do it so you foresee all possible issues and know what you are doing. Starting with no plan is a recipe for tears , hassle and stings and that is just the bees' reaction.

 

[little_john]

with input from Eva Crane - the three met at the NHS in 1964
See the foreword to the IBRA Tropical Agriculturalist - Beekeeping written by Patterson and also his book 'Beekeeping in Tropical Africa'
where he gives credit to them for their input, in his own words:

He worked closely with the Canadian International Development Agency and with the university of Guelph (he worked on a bee farm in Canada for a while) on beekeeping projects both in Canada and Kenya

Sure, Crane proposed the initial idea, but most (perhaps all ?) authorities give credit to Paterson and Tredwell for the resulting design.

The design of top-bar hives has its origins in the work done in 1965 by Tredwell and Paterson.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_top-bar_hive
The KTBH was developed along principles of certain Greek basket hives which may date back to the time of Aristotle. Its modern avatar was "invented" by J.D. Tredwell and P. Paterson in 1965(1) and was employed in a rural extension project directed by the University of Guelph in the 1970's(2).
https://www.apiservices.biz/en/arti...ktbh-as-a-better-hive-in-the-developing-world
Dr. Eva Crane, director at that time of the Bee Research Association (now IBRA) had a GTBBH [Greek Top Bar Hive] at her home in use since 1958 and was familiar with its management (Crane 1983). In 1964 Crane met through Captain E. Jack Tredwell (Head of Beekeeping at Sparsholt College of Agriculture in Hampshire) his student from Kenya, Mr. Peter D. Paterson.
Crane motivated Paterson to develop a type of hive that would be useful in
Kenya, suggesting the GTBBH as a model. Paterson and Tredwell with the help of Mr. John Cossburn made a rectangular wooden TBH with interchangeable uniform length top bar frames, stating this as a major advance over the GTBBH (Paterson 2008). It is not known if they were familiar with the existence of rectangular TBH, in different parts of Greece decades before.
The First Top Bar Hive with Fully Interchangeable Combs, Georgios Mavrofridis & Ioannis Th. Anagnostopoulos, American Bee Journal, May 2012.

So yes, Crane was involved - I was really more concerned that you had omitted to credit Tredwell.
However, many thanks for posting that - as I'd completely forgotten my reasons for previously leaving this forum ...
LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was really more concerned that you had omitted to credit Tredwell.

it wasn't on purpose, I was busy doing something else when I wrote the post and nowadays I sometimes struggle to remember words/names

 

[Bettenham]

I converted TBHs to Langstroths/Nationals in 2014/5 when I saw the light.
Just attach TBH bars - to a frame - using either screws or cable ties.
Remove any excess length wood on TBH bars using hand held loppers. (another helper makes it easier or use a portable workbench as a vice -my 40 years old B&D Workmate was ideal).
Trim excess comb using sharp secateurs or a kitchen knife.
Choose a warm not windy sunny day at least 15C.

You must be prepared for spilled honey and possible robbing as a result. (Don't ask).

Edit: Think through all steps before you do it so you foresee all possible issues and know what you are doing. Starting with no plan is a recipe for tears , hassle and stings and that is just the bees' reaction.

Thanks. Yes, thinking of the steps already! The loppers sound like a good idea. Will mark up the top bars. Pre drill the frames and have the driver ready for the drywall screws!

 

[Bettenham]

Thanks. Yes, thinking of the steps already! The loppers sound like a good idea. Will mark up the top bars. Pre drill the frames and have the driver ready for the drywall screws!

Ok.Today was the day I tackled the top bar! and pleased to say they are all in the temporary (short!) deep nuc I made. Battery dewalt circular saw and driver in hand this morning, with frames predrilled and drywall screw fitted it all went fairly smoothly even with the bees on the comb. The one with the Queen on was a bit nerve wracking. I should have taken her off really but as it was the last frame to do and I wanted it over! We did see her go in though which was a relief. I think the worst bit was getting the stragglers out the old hive because by that time they were understandably a bit upset.
I need to move a bit quick though and get their original hive modified as there is not a lot of room in there - they need to draw out the 14x12 frames from the triangular top bar shape but whether they will - or just swarm after all the upset I've caused don't know?

 

[Murox]

looks like a proper job from the pic. please, keep us informed .

 

[Alan B]

I like the look of the dartington hive , are there plans available please.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I like the look of the dartington hive , are there plans available please.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/dartington-long-deep-hive.54925/

 

[Buzby]

I like the look of the dartington hive , are there plans available please.

Omlet Beehaus (essentially a Dartington Long Hive) guide book Not plans but interesting.https://www.omlet.co.uk/files/public/omlet_guide_to_keeping_bees_and_beehaus_instructions.pdf

 

[rdartington]

Omlet Beehaus (essentially a Dartington Long Hive) guide book Not plans but interesting.https://www.omlet.co.uk/files/public/omlet_guide_to_keeping_bees_and_beehaus_instructions.pdf

The beehaus is a polypropylene ‘long combination’ hive derived from the Dartington Long Deep hive - they gave me £5,000 for use of the copyright. It comes in a large cardboard box - you bolt on the legs and you’re off! However, polypropylene is highly sensitive to temperature in the mould, so joints have to be open and plugged with soft foam, not too attractive. It is aimed at well-off Londoners who want a hive on a rooftop. Good website.

Full info on home construction of the Dartington in booklet from Northern Bee Books - who also publish the 1985 booklet on New Beekeeping with the Dartington Hive.

 

[Buzby]

The beehaus is a polypropylene ‘long combination’ hive derived from the Dartington Long Deep hive - they gave me £5,000 for use of the copyright. It comes in a large cardboard box - you bolt on the legs and you’re off! However, polypropylene is highly sensitive to temperature in the mould, so joints have to be open and plugged with soft foam, not too attractive. It is aimed at well-off Londoners who want a hive on a rooftop. Good website.

Full info on home construction of the Dartington in booklet from Northern Bee Books - who also publish the 1985 booklet on New Beekeeping with the Dartington Hive.
View attachment 38368

I have two Dartington Long Deep hives and a Beehaus. Most excellent hives, I prefer the wooden ones (1 I built the other a second hand bargain)