Cut Comb frame.

[Into the lions den]

Neither of us can know for certain, but I think that the balance of probability would say that using foundation actually adds rather than reduces stress for the bees.

Not sure what PolyHive will say to that, being a very experienced guy in Scottish conditions too, but I find that conclusion puzzling.

As I said earlier, I appreciate and accept there are many motivations and thoughts on these matters, but providing them with a template, especially with excess wax already available to start wall extension and thus having less wax making to do...which is a bee ageing process....seems to be making it easier rather than harder.

If your suggestion is that the wax is contaminated with harmful substances then in some circumstances you might have a point. However we get our own wax milled by Thornes for the cut comb job.......and any bought in wax we buy in very large amounts which makes it viable to have some pretty severe analyses done to ensure we are not contaminating anything. Every batch is checked and comes with a very extensive set of results so we KNOW there are no nasties in there. Actually more sure of that than of our own......

I know its not a Scottish example but a few years ago we had some foundation from France that upon analysis had a surprising number of chemicals in it (over 70!) but at the same time a friend (also in France) supplied a comparison sample from free drawn comb in his 'bio' unit.....and it had almost as many....only 10 less...but the biggy was the absence of the beekeeper added ones.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Lost for words Murray?

 

[ericbeaumont]

destined for the cutting room

What gives the cleanest cut with least effort & mess?

 

[Into the lions den]

What gives the cleanest cut with least effort & mess?

We keep a large tall jug filled up with hot water and use heavy large carving knives kept hot. Hot enough to melt down through the comb enough to give clean edges. There are several of them in the water...use for one comb only, scrape off on the edge of the off cuts bucket then return to the hot water.

There will be better ways!

 

[user 20297]

Not sure what PolyHive will say to that, being a very experienced guy in Scottish conditions too, but I find that conclusion puzzling.

As I said earlier, I appreciate and accept there are many motivations and thoughts on these matters, but providing them with a template, especially with excess wax already available to start wall extension and thus having less wax making to do...which is a bee ageing process....seems to be making it easier rather than harder.

If your suggestion is that the wax is contaminated with harmful substances then in some circumstances you might have a point. However we get our own wax milled by Thornes for the cut comb job.......and any bought in wax we buy in very large amounts which makes it viable to have some pretty severe analyses done to ensure we are not contaminating anything. Every batch is checked and comes with a very extensive set of results so we KNOW there are no nasties in there. Actually more sure of that than of our own......

I know its not a Scottish example but a few years ago we had some foundation from France that upon analysis had a surprising number of chemicals in it (over 70!) but at the same time a friend (also in France) supplied a comparison sample from free drawn comb in his 'bio' unit.....and it had almost as many....only 10 less...but the biggy was the absence of the beekeeper added ones.

Thankyou for that comprehensive assessment of the situation.
Being a non-competitive, rank amateur beekeeper as I am obviously allows more freedom to take the alternative route to achieving things.
I came to beekeeping, among other reasons, so that I knew the origin of the honey that I consume. It's simply an extension to that requirement that I prefer the wax to come from my own bees.
Inefficient, pointless, misguided, whatever...but stressful to the bees? I don't think so.

 

[Into the lions den]

Thankyou for that comprehensive assessment of the situation.
Being a non-competitive, rank amateur beekeeper as I am obviously allows more freedom to take the alternative route to achieving things.
I came to beekeeping, among other reasons, so that I knew the origin of the honey that I consume. It's simply an extension to that requirement that I prefer the wax to come from my own bees.
Inefficient, pointless, misguided, whatever...but stressful to the bees? I don't think so.

Oh I don't have any issues with that......just it does not greatly square with my experience....(the bit that making them draw from scratch is more stressful than giving them foundation...that's the only bit I am puzzled about)

However....I doubt the stress effect is great...especially given that...knowing comb drawing ages bees...we replace so much brood comb in the autumn here.

The fresh comb's benefits outweighs the negative effect of making them draw it. Nothing is ever absolutist.

 

[user 20297]

Oh I don't have any issues with that......just it does not greatly square with my experience....(the bit that making them draw from scratch is more stressful than giving them foundation...that's the only bit I am puzzled about)

However....I doubt the stress effect is great...especially given that...knowing comb drawing ages bees...we replace so much brood comb in the autumn here.

The fresh comb's benefits outweighs the negative effect of making them draw it. Nothing is ever absolutist.

Cheers...thanks for clearing that up....I wasn't 100% clear on what you meant in response to that suggestion by @Poly Hive . Everyone should remember your last phrase and take it to heart....in general, it would make beekeeping discussions more friendly and helpful.

 

[ericbeaumont]

large carving knives kept hot.

Same here, but messy nonetheless. This time round, I heated knives briefly in a gas flame. Does cut comb quickly but knives must then be washed & re-heated regularly.

Wonder whether a grid of hot wires could be rigged, similar to waxing pre-wired frames. Would give a clean cut.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Murray I hope you’ll be offering those CC boxes on your web site?

If Murray sells you some wholesale I’ll be knocking at your door for 50

 

[Poly Hive]

In my thoughts it's pretty simple anything that adds extra work to the colony may add stress. Seems logical to me that offering foundation is less work for the bees than no foundation. Just my thoughts/gut feeling.

PH

 

[Newbeeneil]

Same here, but messy nonetheless. This time round, I heated knives briefly in a gas flame. Does cut comb quickly but knives must then be washed & re-heated regularly.

Wonder whether a grid of hot wires could be rigged, similar to waxing pre-wired frames. Would give a clean cut.

Would something like this work?
https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d0...8XCCiJdB--vzvBzZQm7DRsewmUuMa4MhoCL8AQAvD_BwE

 

[JamezF]

Seems logical to me that offering foundation is less work for the bees than no foundation. Just my thoughts/gut feeling.

I honestly don't know. I've heard people say that they will draw out starter strips faster than foundation, but that might just be anecdotal. Even then it's hard to define what actually constitutes "less work" as far as bees are concerned. Perhaps when you're evolved to draw your own comb from scratch it's actually not as easy to do when provided with foundation? I have no idea.

James

 

[JamezF]

Would something like this work?

I was thinking of something like those heated wire cutting tools for foam, but I guess that's much the same thing.

James

 

[Newbeeneil]

I was thinking of something like those heated wire cutting tools for foam, but I guess that's much the same thing.

James

The trouble with the wire is they reseal the wax as they go through. With the knife you can separate the wax as you go.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Would something like this work?

One review: Absolute Waste Of Time.
I bought this to cut some medium density foam, at its hottest it could still be held by the blade. This was the first and last time of using it before returning. Buy cheap buy twice.

 

[Newbeeneil]

One review: Absolute Waste Of Time.
I bought this to cut some medium density foam, at its hottest it could still be held by the blade. This was the first and last time of using it before returning. Buy cheap buy twice.

TBH I once bought one for cutting poly but it was not very good Wax melts at lower temperature so it might work but to be honest it was the principle that I was looking at. As I said to James in my experience wires don't work as the wax reseals it's self as soon as the wire passes. You really do need a hot blade.

 

[Erichalfbee]

For me it depends only on the volume. I’ve only ever done one super at a time and a boning knife works perfectly well for me. It cuts one frame pretty well then I just clean it and go on to the next …. But then I am really small time.

 

[ericbeaumont]

wires don't work as the wax reseals it's self

Pity. Another tactic I've yet to try is to chill the combs before cutting with a hot knife. In the greengrocer yesterday I saw a Hilltop cut comb (in those very good OzmertPlastik boxes many wish Murray would stock) and every edge was crisp and straight. Believe it was Hungarian acacia, so I assume the producers cut plenty of tonnes each year and have a cunning method.

 

[rolande]

The most viable way to produce cut comb, and its the normal in most countries now, is to use DEEP frames. From a BS deep frame you get 10 pieces, from a Langstroth 14...in both cases if completely full. Yes the spacing is narrower so the pieces mostly go out at a nominal (so not less than) 200g...but you get just the same money for a 200g piece as you get for 227g. We DO use a slimmer hard plastic box too, so the 200g is perfect.

Without wishing to derail this thread this is an opportunity to ask about the spacing you use on your bs frames not that I imagine it would have much bearing on the weight but I *think* I remember, some years ago, you writing here (in agreement to a comment by Pete Little) that you'd prefer to use inch and one half spacing - hope I'm not misrepresenting what you wrote. I presume you'd need to keep standard langstroth spacing in those hives so it might make economic sense to have everything milled at the same but this is a question which I've been meaning to ask for a while.

 

[Poly Hive]

Spacing is simplified with Manley side bars which are.... 1.5". I use a cake slice and a medium kitchen knife to cut with. I have a stainless steel tray which I cut the comb out of the frame on and then place a plywood template on the comg to cut around. I have a strong polythene box I wipe the slice and knife on and put the offcuts into for spinning out later on. The cuts go into their containers and are weighed to see they are not excessively heavy. Pretty simple.

KISS
PH