Colony bursting out of 14x12

[rogerlouis]

I am a relatively new beek. One of my colonies is on a 14x12 and a super above followed by a QE and then 2 supers. The bees are overflowing out of the brood box. I have not yet seen any queen cells.

This colony is very well-behaved and produced more honey last year than all my other 4 put together.

When we had a shower earlier, there must have been a couple of thousand bees trying to get back into the hive. The full width mouseguard is still on the full width opening, but I am currently unwilling to remove it as I would like them to be able to defend against wasps, etc.

I have not had to deal with a colony of this potential size before, and would like to know if someone would give me advice on how I should handle it.

I have considered:
Replacing the super below the brood box by another 14x12.
Using any QCs produced to further the line in another colony/nuc.
Using a frame with eggs to boost weaker colonies.

What do more experienced beeks think would be a sensible course of action?

Roger

 

[dexter's shed]

have you seen wasp's around your hive then??
remove the mouse guard, if you have that many bees, defense is not a problem
I have bees like that, I whack another super on under the current two

 

[Erichalfbee]

Wasps may be a problem in August. A full length mouse guard is not a good idea at this time as the bees have to defend every hole. A strong colony behind a reduced entrance is the way to go. As for your current predicament; is there brood on most of those 22 frames? You could take a frame of emerging brood not eggs away to boost another colony and give them a frame of foundation to draw in the middle of the Brood nest.

 

[Bosleeu]

I wouldn't think she would need another 14x12 broodbox, and two full boxes like that will be pretty hard work.

A 14x12 brood box plus a super should be enough for even a super queen, provided it is not full of nectar. I would make as much space under the QE as possible by removing stores and replacing with comb, or foundation if you don't have comb. Also consider adding another super or more above the QE if needed.

At this time of the season wasps are not really a problem yet, and you may be causing a bit of a traffic jam at the entrance, when all they want to do is get the good stuff in. A colony of that size will have a decent home guard at its disposal so I honestly think you can trust them with a full entrance, they will likely be pleased with not having to queue when they want to get in or out.

 

[rogerlouis]

have you seen wasp's around your hive then??
remove the mouse guard, if you have that many bees, defense is not a problem
I have bees like that, I whack another super on under the current two

Thanks Dexter
That's good advice. Give them more supers to work on, and enable them to get in and out quickly.

What I am worried about is making sure I don't lose the queen and release a big swarm, and also I don't really want the queen laying in a super.

Are there any other things I should be considering ?

Roger

 

[Bosleeu]

Ps: Yes use any queencells from her if you want to make increase, and if they can spare the brood by all means give a frame or two to another colony, giving them some empty frames to get busy with.

 

[rogerlouis]

Wasps may be a problem in August. A full length mouse guard is not a good idea at this time as the bees have to defend every hole. A strong colony behind a reduced entrance is the way to go. As for your current predicament; is there brood on most of those 22 frames? You could take a frame of emerging brood not eggs away to boost another colony and give them a frame of foundation to draw in the middle of the Brood nest.

Thanks Erica
Excellent points.
what I did with this colony last year was remove brood for other colonies and replace with foundation in a chequerboard (alternate) pattern. They seemed to appreciate this, and grew like topsy !
The super is there because the colony was too big in autumn to fit into just the brood box. By the time I did the first inspection in the spring, the colony had already started to grow quickly and I did not find the queen. I therefore put the queen excluder above the overwintered super and started adding supers. There had not yet been any brood in the first super. Would it be wise to replace this super with a 14x12 ?

Roger

 

[oliver90owner]

First - what is in these brood boxes? (14x12 and shallow)

Second - there will be no need for any mouse guard, wasp guard, or any guard at this time of the year.

What is in the supers?

These details help.

No queen will lay up 2 of 14 x 12 and a shallow.

 

[Finman]

.
You should consider too, that some day brood combs are old and it is time to get new frames to be drawn before that.

 

[oliver90owner]

In answer to your other questions.

Rearnew queens from this queen, by all means.

Adding emerging brood is a far better plan than adding extra eggs to a weak colony. Faster effect and theweak colony has no need to be stretched in feeding more larvae.

Large colonies should present no particular problems as long as the bees are well behaved. Thzt is how you want all your colonies!

Regarding brood box size - think number of cells available and the maximum lay-rate of the queen.

 

[rogerlouis]

Thanks Oliver, Finman and Bosleeu
The brood shallow contains stores.
The top super contained honey produced by this colony last year.
The second super contains empty comb, cut out for comb from this colony last year. They have started to draw this out and fill it.
I will add another super asap, and follow it by another a week or two later.

I intended to remove older brood frames to replace with foundation as I do each summer.
Suspect I change these a bit more often than I need to ! I've ended up with old brood frames to use for bait boxes, but none of the swarms I have collected have been up to much so far. I live in hope !

thanks for all your help. I've no doubt others may find it interesting.

Roger

 

[Finman]

.
The top super contained honey produced by this colony last year.


I

.
Capped or open?

You should do something to that stuff. If bees store new honey in combs, it will crystallize too.

1) spray water on crystalls and bees suck thf liquid off. Then again spray on again.

2) spray water on crystalls and let bees use combs as brood combs. Bees clean cells and move the honey.

 

[rogerlouis]

I guess that is one advantage of your Langstroth system. Ours is not as interchangeable. Yes I would like the bees to remove the capped honey completely and start again, but it's not likely when they are bringing in so much. Maybe I should keep these for the early summer food shortage period, if I can work out when it is !
I think I will replace it with foundation, and then plonk this back on when I extract. what do others do ?
Excellent advice Finman about spraying, that is what I do. I imagine though that some newer beeks may not consider this when feeding stores.

 

[itma]

...
The brood shallow contains stores.
The top super contained honey produced by this colony last year.
The second super contains empty comb, cut out for comb from this colony last year. They have started to draw this out and fill it.
I will add another super asap...

So those boxes aren't providing any 'space' (empty comb) for the colony.
The "brood shallow" isn't being used for brood!
They are just 'dead' storage from last year.
So they hardly count.
"Space" for the avoidance of swarming means available empty comb in the brood box, even more than it means hive volume to reduce bee congestion.

I'd get last year's full shallow boxes out of the way.
If the "stores" is syrup I'd have it well out of the way until autumn.
Normal storage considerations apply.

That leaves you with a 14x12 and a not-yet fully drawn super that the bees actually have available for use.
I reckon they could probably do with a drawn-comb super as well. Instant "space" for your bees.
If needbe, extract last year's honey and return the 'wet' frames.
No drama.


If there are plural entire frameS of stores in the brood, get one out, and put a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood (being a strongish colony, they should draw it in a few days if they have nectar income ... which may depend on local weather).



The american idea of 'checkerboarding' relates to expanding a colony with multiple brood boxes, and isn't really appropriate to comb replacement in a single brood 14x12, let alone what sounds like removal of half the brood frames.

... at the first time this type of backfilling behavior starts is the best time to do the Checkerboarding intervention. It requires filling two hive boxes above the broodnest each alternately with capped honey-filled frames and empty drawn frames. Alternating empty drawn combs above the brood nest "fools" the bees into thinking they don't have enough stores yet for swarming and causes them to expand the brood nest,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboarding_(beekeeping)
It is done in the two boxes above the existing brood nest - early in the season. I don't believe it is regarded as mainstream even in the wacky world of US beekeeping.
Fragmenting your brood nest with alternate foundation frames is a "bold" (I'm being polite) idea.

The large-frame concept of the 14x12 is quite different to the management concepts that can be applied to multiple smaller boxes.
Multi-brood boxes have their adherents.
So do large frame single broods.
But don't get confused as to which manipulations are specific to which arrangement.

 

[Finman]

To Itma.
Shallow boxes are as well brood boxes as others.

Last summer honey cannot be extracted because it is crystallized.

Like Itma says, fragmenting brood nest is bold, but I would say that it is not wise.

But strong hive stands what ever beekeeper.

.

 

[wessexmario]

The american idea of 'checkerboarding' relates to expanding a colony with multiple brood boxes, and isn't really appropriate to comb replacement in a single brood 14x12, let alone what sounds like removal of half the brood frames. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboarding_(beekeeping)
It is done in the two boxes above the existing brood nest - early in the season.

You'll need to be a good forecaster given those instructions, everything is supposed to happen an exact number of weeks BEFORE natural events.
Reminds me of travelling directions... "when you go past the Dog and Duck, you've gone too far!"

 

[MuswellMetro]

have you seen wasp's around your hive then??
remove the mouse guard, if you have that many bees, defense is not a problem
I have bees like that, I whack another super on under the current two

i had one on 14x12 double brood last year, my advice is add TWO supers under the other 2 supers, they need space to rest at night, a full emerging brood frame of 14x12 requires almost half a super for resting space ( a bee occupies three times the area of a brood cell)

mouseguard off, Summer Bees are quite capable of defending a open entrance, Wasps attack IN AUTUMN not spring and they find it easier to get in a via mouseguard as not every hole is defended whereas a guard bee can partol quite a large area from the edge of a single large hole in an entrance block

 

[rogerlouis]

Checkerboarding has worked very well with this colony. It was produced from an AS last year. I did it at As tho so prob not relevant.

I managed to do the first inspection in 8 days yesterday (18 C), The brood nest now extends over halfway into the broodsuper. Found 8 Q cells 4 sealed in the shallow. One more sealed cell found at the bottom of one of the main brood box. Took some video

All the top Q cells were on the same frame, so I moved this into a nuc. I do have an apidea, but I would only consider using this when I split off some of the Q cells now in the nuc. The brood box does have quite a lot of stores ! Action needed here !

I did not initially find the queen, but as I was reassembling the hive, I found her walking purposefully on one of the frames taken off the brood shallow. Captured and marked her.

It was certainly a thrill working in a colony with so many bees. Every frame in the brood box and shallow below the QE was covered with busy girls, but there is a considerable number of drones. Drone brood was separate from worker brood and mostly on the shallow.

Above QE, the super that was empty two weeks ago is now nearly full. Should be capped in a few days. I moved that up and put a new super in both above and below.

the other colonies were less friendly and a bit defensive. Do some large colonies behave in this way because there are large numbers of young bees and the are therefore more "confident" ?

Roger

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So you left the queen in there after finding all those sealed QC's ?

 

[drstitson]

a big colony will beard around the entrance

BUT

mouse guards are for winter.

reduced entrances are to prevent robbing and wasps towards end of season.