Clipped queens & swarming and Layens hives

[user 21455]

Very new to this.
Just wanted to know If the queen has been clipped. What happens if they want to swarm? Do they stand around waiting for the queen to set off or do they not bother?
As the queen I have has apparently been clipped and I'm not sure what to do if they want to swarm. Is she likely to set off walking? What happens if new queen cells hatch and she is still there?

Also does anyone have experience with Layens hives? As I am building one and have followed the plans. But I have also installed a Varroa mesh floor with a slide out tray. As, although I want to keep them as naturally as possible
with minimum treatments I also want to keep an eye on their health.
It says in my book that it is possible to keep Bees without treatments if they are kept 'Naturally ' In hives that mimic their natural environment But I am not fully convinced.
If that theory were correct then wild Rabbits would be immune to Myxamatosis etc etc. And on an evolutionary scale Varroa is very new to European Bees so I would imagine resistance will take a long time and I don't want them to become a scource of infection to other hives.
Any thoughts?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Talk to @pargyle about the way he keeps his bees. He’s never treated them for varroa.
Regards swarming, the queen is an unwilling participant. She is jostled and starved for a week or two so that she slims down to fly with the swarm. The bees push her out. If she can’t fly she falls to the ground and will perish. The swarm returns to the hive and waits for the first virgin to emerge

 

[Ian123]

First off before getting bees have you attended a course and I’d suggest contacting your local association. Many have meetings this time of year and welcome people coming along. Before getting bees a basic knowledge is required and that really would answer your questions. There’s a commitment required to any livestock, ensuring you can meet their needs should be a minimal requirement!!
As to treatment free some do keep bees that way however some management practices can and do help but it’s a tricky path. Ideally learn the basics and then muck about as much as you like.

 

[user 21455]

Thanks for your replies.
Now I know I need to speed up my hive build!
Hi Ian123 No I haven't yet attended a course although I intend to ASAP. In an ideal world I would have 'put the horse before the cart'
But unfortunately it was get the swarm or leave them to the local kids to stone to death (see my intro)
and I met their needs the very next day after being up most of the night. as is evidenced by them apparently thriving.
I have also been researching as much as I can and learned a lot but there is a lot of conflicting opinions out there and some questions I can't find answers to. That is why I joined this forum to seek help and advice.
cheers.

 

[B_north]

I have two Layens hives, I had one Lanstroth and gave it, along with the bees, away to my SIL this spring. I much prefer working the Layens.

That said, IMO there are a few problems with the Layens plans the first is the touching top bars. Without the ability for the bees to pass up and over the frames feeding, if you need it, becomes a pain. You can feed within the hive body but in my experience the bees will not take the feed when it gets cooler unless it it directly over the cluster area. I ended up using a router and making the top bars with long openings. It also allows me to do OA dribble easier.

Making the top bars 'open' also allows me to super these hives and to make deep quilt boxes with feeding rims which is absolutely necessary in my cold zone. I make all my own hives and frames and I am not commercial so I also made my own supers to fit these hives. Two side by side sit atop one of my Layens.

I modified the plans without the varroa mesh floor, it is a cool idea until the winter sets in, bees die, wax cappings fall and the screens clog up. I spent an interesting day cutting out the mesh from above to remove the soggy mess in the spring. Now I have my Layens with a 2 inch high door all along the back that I can just unscrew and scrape out the debris.

I also made the hive 21 inches deep, this allows me to turn a Lang frame 90 degrees, attach it to a top bar and hang it in the hive. The only reason for this was to install a standard nuc. Two years later I am still using those frames and the bees put brood or nectar in them just fine.

I don't think the Layens is in any way better at keeping Varroa away, it is a combination of location, bees, and beekeeper methods. I still have to treat my bees for Varroa but I use an OA dribble, and Apivar on a rotational basis as the Apivar is starting to create resistant mites in my area and the dribble, used the very last in the fall, cleans up any mites that the Apivar could have missed.

 

[Boston Bees]

It says in my book that it is possible to keep Bees without treatments if they are kept 'Naturally ' In hives that mimic their natural environment But I am not fully convinced.

You are right to be sceptical, and in any case there are few hives which are less like a natural cavity than a Layens hive.

 

[pargyle]

Talk to @pargyle about the way he keeps his bees. He’s never treated them for varroa.

That's correct ... still untreated but .. would I recommend a new beekeeper, with new bees, in an untested location to start out TF ... definitelyt NOT.

It is possible to be TF but it's a real risk that your colony will not survive if they become infested - it's not just varroa you have to deal with it's the vectored diseases such as DWV that also present a risk.

Anyone considering being treatment free (and it's very satisfying when it works) should look at testing for varroa, properly, with a sugar roll (not just counting mites on the inspection board) and start monitoring the colony for mite levels before just casting treatment aside and hoping for the best. Take the middle road to start with and if the varroa count is high - treat them. Oxalic Acid by sublimation is by far the most effective, least invasive and least noxious treatment for varroa. If testing shows a low mite count - hold off treatment. The great thing about OA by sublimation is you can use it at any time in the season.

Some colonies, in some locations, mostly in highly insulated hives, appear able to manage the presence of varroa - there will always be some varroa in the colony - even those people who treat their bees are never varroa free. The key to being TF is knowing your bees and to be perfectly honest it took me a few years to really know what I was doing being TF ... and I got lucky.

There are so many factors that influence the incidence of varroa in a colony and nobody has yet provided a completely reliable method for being TF. My basic philosophy, which seems to work for me, in my location, is this:

Nothing goes in to the hive unless the bees bring it in. So ..the factors that appear (and I can't prove any of it so don't ask for proof) to allow my bees to thrive in a treatment free :

1. Highly insulated hives - you cannot have too much insulation.
2. Foundation free - they build their own comb however they want it and rear whatever they want in the way of brood - yes, they make a lot of drones but that's fine with me.
3. Low impact inspections - I check only for BIAS, disease and stores - in and out as quickly aand gently as I can. I test regularly for varroa levels.
4. They overwinter primarily on their own honey - I will top up with Invertbee if a colony needs it.
5. No queen excluders - the colony is free to use the space I provide as they see fit.
6. I don't force spring development.
7. I'm in an area (edge of town, semi-urban) location. They have access to forage from domestic garden, council planting, trees, fields, hedgerows, railway banking, allotments all within a very close foraging distance. I don't get massive flows - it's more a steady flow from about March through to the Ivy in October/November so they have access to a wide variety of forage right the way through the season.
8. I don't take a spring crop of honey - I take the honey just once a year - usually end of August and the rest of it is theirs for winter.

My bees are healthy and disease free. I get above average crops of honey compared to other beekeepers in my area and I have not lost colonies as a result of varroa -indeed, I have lost very few colonies over the years.

So - should the OP start out TF - as I said - definitely not, get a few years under your belt - get used to testing and learn about Oxalic Acid by sublimation and if a colony needs treating - treat it, the risk is less and at least, when you have a few colonies, if you do cock it up at least you have some back up.

There's enough to learn in the early years of beekeeping without making it more difficult by treading away from established and reliable paths.

 

[user 21455]

Mmmm More to consider!
The hive is 21" deep Ive built it with 3" thick walls, 1/2" plywood, 1 3/4" insulation and 3/4" T&G. The bottom is also insulated.
The frames are a bit longer at 19" and reach down to 1/2" above the mesh floor I've made some frames with just a short 3" starter strip so that I can rotate the national frames 90 degrees and fix them in the remaining space. with the idea of gradually replacing them as the brood hatches. They are big enough to fit 2 super frames in side by side by rotating them the same way.
I'm not sure if I should shorten the frames to leave more space underneath them. I believe wild bees stop building comb when it gets to around 20" anyway? I assume because the risk of it breaking and falling increases?
Did wonder about fixing the screen floor to a frame so it could be lifted out for cleaning, but decided against it unfortunately.
I'm hoping building the frames longer means they won't need suplementary feeding in the winter.
the other thing i'm concerned about is consendation. So I'm considering a layer of 'breathable' insulation over the frames then a 6" 'loft' space under the actual roof plus ventilation holes in the gable ends. Thankfully I have got a table saw and a mitre saw as I have had to make everything from scratch!
thetop bars were supposed to be 1 1/2" wide but when i got the timber home it was actually 1 1/4" so I've added plastic strips to widen them. hopefully it will be more effective than it looks LOL

 

[magor]

when first begun due to my agnorance , sensitivity , refusal? .........i was thought that i can nurse bees better than others do chem treats and so what i did without know it was ''live and let it die'' and had good years and bad years with looses and survivals also , looses are more but survivals are survivals and honestly it hurt , looses hurts your ego your confidence your ability and sometimes dark thoughts come to give up and either you do quit or you start searching and reading and try find surveys ............and i found many ''golden eggs '' which promised miracles but also found that

there are biotechnical ways

comb trap
swarm - brood removal
brood brake
Q caging
breeding

this might helps you(lucky is now on engls and on ytube also if am not wrong ) it did help me when found it(was in german wish it was not nor that my engl are.........but german was total .........) ,introduced me in summer brake/trapp comb and so overwinter better collonies http://www.bregalnica-ncp.mk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Alternativni_metodi_Varroa_ENG.pdf

all of em require knowledge of biological life cyrcle of
-bees/brood (casts/nurses/foragers/eggs/brood/sealed/hatch/emerge/brakes / timing
-mites (life/food/mother/male/females/ phoretic stage / reproductive stage / eggs /adults /daughters / timing change between 2 stages, between eggs to adults, between daughter to mother

and thhen all come together with genetics, microclimate ,location and those little things each beekeeper doing (hives , insulations , entrances,floors ,temperatures/humidity/condensation, combs/places , foundationless ,nest , feedings , visits , smokes , disturbs , honey , pollen , luck ..........................)

am still heavy chem free(ve used in some occasions oa spray on summer brood brake but never on winter when em cluster and pervasion isnt what it should be due to cluster and would like to test in future formic maqs to keep it for when it needs,for me its more natural on bees as bee venom has it ) doing a mix from above such as early spring pagden in mother collonies(feeding early spring overwinterd small boxes pushing on early swarm) with trap comb in time trying to catch as much as many daughters alongside with mothers who will definately join the cells and late summer in new collonies using the above link brood brake with traditional comb trap on 9days(next year i do the opposite on mother collonie and daughter and the same on new ones ,and the next next year i nuc the mother collonie for her genetics and the rest vise versa .......so its kinda like 3 to 4 years managment), also cut small pieces 2-3 times of drone combs now that am foundationless on spring/summer but not all, always keep small entrances,solid floors and insulated roof in summer for cool(keeping humidity using by bees wings) but ve to figure it out how to overwinter cause my first winter with nats and inner cover .................so far didnt buy bees or Q never did graft(only cut swarm cells or using emergency from eggs from chosen collonies do no believe i can graft better larva than a bee can choose but try check always the age of it in a QC but if i ever ve to graft ll chooose a method using eggs not larve ) avoid using smoke(never in summer for other reasons here in greece that trained me doing it and rest periods), do counts/test varroa in june/july/august and sometimes pin brood in spring in collonies either i suspect them ve the survival thing or them ve a problem, always feed thymol in autumn syrup and trying not extract honey from nest , feeding early spring for above reason said and if light in autumn(syrup or and fondant) and never in winter cause not want take away days of bees life in them try/work assimilate the food excpet if em starve.............

i dont say i no believe in chems just dont like using em(dont like wear mask protectine clothers,gloves,hair to vape for example or use a chem that it or it derivatives will stay in wax...........) and also like the challenge trying without em but if it has to be done then it has to be done , in what i am against is preventive treatment or preventive feeding for no reason but just to be done ,i think in general we humans ve missunderstood the prevention in everything not just bees i think we lost in between precautionary measures and preventive therapy

anyway i do no call myself anymore threatment free(i do no let it anymore just live and die) but chem free cause i do threat and maybe in a barbaric way(ve killed my sensitivity) cause i do kill brood

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the other thing i'm concerned about is consendation. So I'm considering a layer of 'breathable' insulation over the frames then a 6" 'loft' space under the actual roof plus ventilation holes in the gable ends

Nooooooo!

 

[Finman]

You are right to be sceptical, and in any case there are few hives which are less like a natural cavity than a Layens hive.

Layen hive id very common is the Eastern Europe. What id necessary, the queen cannot be s good layer. Otherwise it fills the hive with brood in a week.

 

[pargyle]

Mmmm More to consider!
The hive is 21" deep Ive built it with 3" thick walls, 1/2" plywood, 1 3/4" insulation and 3/4" T&G. The bottom is also insulated.
The frames are a bit longer at 19" and reach down to 1/2" above the mesh floor I've made some frames with just a short 3" starter strip so that I can rotate the national frames 90 degrees and fix them in the remaining space. with the idea of gradually replacing them as the brood hatches. They are big enough to fit 2 super frames in side by side by rotating them the same way.
I'm not sure if I should shorten the frames to leave more space underneath them. I believe wild bees stop building comb when it gets to around 20" anyway? I assume because the risk of it breaking and falling increases?
Did wonder about fixing the screen floor to a frame so it could be lifted out for cleaning, but decided against it unfortunately.
I'm hoping building the frames longer means they won't need suplementary feeding in the winter.
the other thing i'm concerned about is consendation. So I'm considering a layer of 'breathable' insulation over the frames then a 6" 'loft' space under the actual roof plus ventilation holes in the gable ends. Thankfully I have got a table saw and a mitre saw as I have had to make everything from scratch!
thetop bars were supposed to be 1 1/2" wide but when i got the timber home it was actually 1 1/4" so I've added plastic strips to widen them. hopefully it will be more effective than it looks LOL

Firstly, No ventilation is needed ...a sealed brood box is best for the bees - they will regulate the temperature and humidity ... think - holes in trees ? They don't have upper ventilation holes usually.

If you get condensation the answer is more insulation but if you have 50mm of Kingspan above the crownboard you won't get condensation.

I like your insulated box ... my first hive (a Long deep hive - it takes 25 No.14 x 12 frames) is similar construction.

The half inch under the frames you may come to regret .. I, mistakenly, left about an inch beneath the frames above the mesh floor ...they continued building downwards when they had filled the frame.

Bees won't build comb longer than 21" - a fallacy. I've seen a comb in a wall cut out that was nearly 3 feet deep !

Here's my Long deep hive ....


https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157634865981506

 

[user 21455]

Hi Major thanks for that link I will have a good read of that later
Jenkinsbrynmair Noooooo! ......?

 

[user 21455]

Pargyle Thank You I'm glad you said re the 1/2" under the frames I did wonder if they would stick some comb there That means I can take up the mesh and put it back on a frame! and also re the ventilation - I was going to put ventilation holes above loose fibre insulation do you think its better not to then?
the walls have foil covered kingspan in them as they will be painted on the outside so any moisture would become trapped in the cavitry.
The floor cavity is filled with polystyrene balls and the floor will be un painted so that any moisture can evaporate through it.

 

[pargyle]

Hi Major thanks for that link I will have a good read of that later
Jenkinsbrynmair Noooooo! ......?

You will also find that lovely rebate you have created to sit your frames in is going to be a real PITA - they wil propolise the frames in to the rebate and you are going to have a helliuva job prising the first frame out when you inspect - your frame lugs are very short and you may find that there's not much to lever against to het the frames started out of the box. Make a dummy board to go at the end so that you can lift that one out first without stressing the bees and once that is out you have room to move the next frame along a bit before lifting it out. You may also find those very deep frames a bit of a menace unless you are 6' 7" with arms like a gorilla and the sort of physique that can lift a car engine out without a block and tackle.

Sorry...just being constructive - I've been there, got tehe T-shirt and seen the movie !!

You do know about bee space don't you ?

 

[pargyle]

Pargyle Thank You I'm glad you said re the 1/2" under the frames I did wonder if they would stick some comb there That means I can take up the mesh and put it back on a frame! and also re the ventilation - I was going to put ventilation holes above loose fibre insulation do you think its better not to then?
the walls have foil covered kingspan in them as they will be painted on the outside so any moisture would become trapped in the cavitry.
The floor cavity is filled with polystyrene balls and the floor will be un painted so that any moisture can evaporate through it.

Stop worrying about condensation and moisture - the bees will sort it out. My hives regulary have a relative humidity above 85 ... it actually has a detrimental effect on the ability of varroa to reproduce.

You do not need top ventilation of any sort. Slab of Kingspan above the crownboard is best.

Don't let the bees anywhere near your polystyrene balls ... they will chew them up.

Forget the screw hooks on the top of the frames - it's never going to work ...once the get the hive gummed up with wax and propolis you will have to pry the frames out.

I think you might have left too much space either side of the frames between the wall and the frame ... more than a bee space and they will fill it with comb, less than a bee space they will fill it with propolis.

I made the mistake (we've probably ALL made the the mistake) of understimating how creative honey bees are with comb and wax ... and more importantly, how fast the take advantage of space that you leave them ... leave a frame out of a hive for a couple of days and just see what they can get up to !

 

[Boston Bees]

Stop worrying about condensation and moisture - the bees will sort it out. My hives regulary have a relative humidity above 85 ... it actually has a detrimental effect on the ability of varroa to reproduce.

You do not need top ventilation of any sort. Slab of Kingspan above the crownboard is best.

Don't let the bees anywhere near your polystyrene balls ... they will chew them up.

Layens hives are notorious for condensation though. Huge wooden cavity, much of which is empty of bees at any one time.

There are many YouTube videos of Layens hive owners finding black mouldy wood and sad wet bees.

Top ventilation isn't the answer though. I can't remember what "Not really a Doctor" Leo advocates to fix it. Probably silica packs ......

 

[pargyle]

Layens hives are notorious for condensation though. Huge wooden cavity, much of which is empty of bees at any one time.

There are many YouTube videos of Layens hive owners finding black mouldy wood and sad wet bees.

Top ventilation isn't the answer though. I can't remember what "Not really a Doctor" Leo advocates to fix it. Probably silica packs ......

The answer is ...insulation, insulation, insulation. My LDH is cavernous ... never had a slight hint of mould - either when occupied or unoccupied. It's not that different to a Layens except my frames are 14 x 12 and there''s a lot more of them.

 

[Worldsend]

I have two Layens hives, I had one Lanstroth and gave it, along with the bees, away to my SIL this spring. I much prefer working the Layens.

That said, IMO there are a few problems with the Layens plans the first is the touching top bars. Without the ability for the bees to pass up and over the frames feeding, if you need it, becomes a pain. You can feed within the hive body but in my experience the bees will not take the feed when it gets cooler unless it it directly over the cluster area. I ended up using a router and making the top bars with long openings. It also allows me to do OA dribble easier.

Making the top bars 'open' also allows me to super these hives and to make deep quilt boxes with feeding rims which is absolutely necessary in my cold zone. I make all my own hives and frames and I am not commercial so I also made my own supers to fit these hives. Two side by side sit atop one of my Layens.

I modified the plans without the varroa mesh floor, it is a cool idea until the winter sets in, bees die, wax cappings fall and the screens clog up. I spent an interesting day cutting out the mesh from above to remove the soggy mess in the spring. Now I have my Layens with a 2 inch high door all along the back that I can just unscrew and scrape out the debris.

I also made the hive 21 inches deep, this allows me to turn a Lang frame 90 degrees, attach it to a top bar and hang it in the hive. The only reason for this was to install a standard nuc. Two years later I am still using those frames and the bees put brood or nectar in them just fine.

I don't think the Layens is in any way better at keeping Varroa away, it is a combination of location, bees, and beekeeper methods. I still have to treat my bees for Varroa but I use an OA dribble, and Apivar on a rotational basis as the Apivar is starting to create resistant mites in my area and the dribble, used the very last in the fall, cleans up any mites that the Apivar could have missed.

What a considered thoughtful reply from someone who has tried the method

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

unless you are 6' 7" with arms like a gorilla and the sort of physique that can lift a car engine out without a block and tackle.

sound like the late Yvonne Roberts just down the road from me