Clipped Queens and Swarming

[JohnRB]

I have found another reference to the idea that clipped queens swarm later than unclipped ones. In his 'Apiarist' blog, David Evans says:

'A queen with a clipped wing generally swarms later than an unclipped queen, potentially giving you a few extra days between inspections. But then goes on to note that you can't rely on this 100%

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is that based on personal experience?

feedback from others with a lot more knowledge than me - think about it, why on earth would a queen (or the colony really) wait? the colony won't realise she can't fly properly until she tries to fly, by that time it's too late. and what would happen if they did wait? multiple swarms in quick succession that's what.

I've never seen anyone else argue for or against his statement

pobably because people have just overlooked or ignored it treating it as a momentary aberration. Read Hooper a few times and that statement was so memorable that I cannot actually recall reading it, as I definitely would have made a mental note

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

'A queen with a clipped wing generally swarms later than an unclipped queen, potentially giving you a few extra days

No definites there - big difference from waiting until the virgins emerge, what usually happens is by the time you checked, the queen has gone and the bees are waiting for the first virgin to emerge so that they can throw the prime swarm.

 

[Hachi]

...

 

[Hachi]

"So, if you follow a 7 day inspection regime why clip?"

Because it is quite easy for the bees to draw and seal a Queen cell in less than 7 days. If you close the hive up after inspection and they immediately start to draw out a 1 day larva, it will be sealed about 5 days later and they will have swarmed 2 days before your next inspection

I'm not really sure how to approach responding save to asking you to put a little more meat on the bone re your theory on the accepted doctrine [possibly in the western world] of the pupation of a Queen bee being 16 days sealed on day 8. Whilst you argue, it can less than 7 days which to my calculations is circa 25% off what is considered the average, give or take an hour or two?.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is that based on personal experience? I've never seen anyone else argue for or against his statement

I don't clip my queens. I find queens present with capped queen cells more often than not

 

[Erichalfbee]

Because it is quite easy for the bees to draw and seal a Queen cell in less than 7 days. If you close the hive up after inspection and they immediately start to draw out a 1 day larva, it will be sealed about 5 days later and they will have swarmed 2 days before your next inspection

But they don't. Bees make swarm cells from eggs laid in queen cups, not worker cells, and you should have jolly well spotted a loaded queen cup which has become a queen cell

 

[Sutty]

"So, if you follow a 7 day inspection regime why clip?"

Because it is quite easy for the bees to draw and seal a Queen cell in less than 7 days. If you close the hive up after inspection and they immediately start to draw out a 1 day larva, it will be sealed about 5 days later and they will have swarmed 2 days before your next inspection

Does that actually happen though?
My understanding is that swarm cells are made from eggs in queen cups.
The 5 day queen cell should only happen if you render them queenless surely? If so there is less likelyhood of swarming as emergency rather than swarm instinct (but not guaranteed!)

 

[Erichalfbee]

The 5 day queen cell should only happen if you render them queenless surely

Yes. They do that with emergency cells

 

[Sutty]

Yes. They do that with emergency cells

My point precisely

 

[JamezF]

One of the things he was completely wrong about

It seems such an odd statement to make without any kind of justification, and raises so many other questions. If it were true, for instance, are the workers aware that her flight is impaired and therefore delay pushing her into leaving until they absolutely have to go to avoid a fight? How would they become aware that she couldn't fly well? Or is she more resistant to leaving because she knows that she can't fly well? And in that case how would she know? Is there in fact some completely different mechanism at work? Does when they leave vary from beekeeper to beekeper depending on their exact method of wing-clipping? Or are (some) beekeepers assuming that if the queen leaves later than expected then it must be due to the wing-clipping when it's just (say) that her workers aren't as assertive about getting her out of the door? Or do they assume that if a clipped queen has gone before they expect then it must be down to some other reason?

Has anyone actually published any proper research on if/how wing-clipping affects swarming time?

James

 

[JohnRB]

I'm not really sure how to approach responding save to asking you to put a little more meat on the bone re your theory on the accepted doctrine [possibly in the western world] of the pupation of a Queen bee being 16 days sealed on day 8. Whilst you argue, it can less than 7 days which to my calculations is circa 25% off what is considered the average, give or take an hour or two?.

Because the 8 days to sealing includes 3 days as an egg. So a 1 day larva is actually day 4. If they start making that into a queencell as you put the lid on, it is sealed 4 or 5 days later, well before your next inspection

 

[JohnRB]

But they don't. Bees make swarm cells from eggs laid in queen cups, not worker cells, and you should have jolly well spotted a loaded queen cup which has become a queen cell

Haha, yes, couldn’t agree more. But if we were all so good at spotting queen cups, we’d never have a swarm. I don’t know a single beekeeper who doesn’t occasionally find a colony has swarmed

 

[Erichalfbee]

Haha, yes, couldn’t agree more. But if we were all so good at spotting queen cups, we’d never have a swarm. I don’t know a single beekeeper who doesn’t occasionally find a colony has swarmed

Yes we miss queen cells....big ones which the bees hide. They can swarm the day after you look in. You said bees can make queen cells from day 4. I agree. They can make these from day 6 but these are emergency cells not swarm cells

 

[Hachi]

Because the 8 days to sealing includes 3 days as an egg. So a 1 day larva is actually day 4. If they start making that into a queencell as you put the lid on, it is sealed 4 or 5 days later, well before your next inspection

Irrespective whether an egg started life as a QC or not, it is capped on day 8 or 8.5 and will emerge 8 days later as a Queen therefore, having a seven day inspection regime will afford the beek the time to see the cell in all its glory.