Clipped Queens and Swarming

[BernardBlack]

Hypothetical question here.

If a clipped Queen tries to swarm, how far would she (and the swarm) get?

I had assumed she would fall out the front door , and the bees hang around outside the hive for a while before going back inside. Yes? No?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Usually just a few feet. Sometimes they can fly for a little further.
The swarm usually clusters in a nearby tree for a few minutes then goes back to the hive.
You might find a few bees huddled round the queen on the ground

 

[BernardBlack]

Usually just a few feet. Sometimes they can fly for a little further.
The swarm usually clusters in a nearby tree for a few minutes then goes back to the hive.
You might find a few bees huddled round the queen on the ground

I see.

And what would usually happen to the queen then?
........ Would they eventually abandon her on the ground?

Would she get back inside? Or would the colony allow her back in?

 

[Erichalfbee]

She usually perishes.

 

[Hachi]

There are some that advocate clipping Queens is a tool in the beekeepers armoury of swarm prevention techniques. I dont share that view as the Queen attempts to swarm regardless she has a wing clipped or not. The only "prevention" bit if you can call it that is when the beek happens upon the Queen on the ground in front of the hive and effects a rescue and splitting the hive . Otherwise its as Dani says, the Queen perishes and the hive having swarmed continue on nurturing their swarm cells in the hive.

 

[BernardBlack]

There are some that advocate clipping Queens is a tool in the beekeepers armoury of swarm prevention techniques. I dont share that view as the Queen attempts to swarm regardless she has a wing clipped or not. The only "prevention" bit if you can call it that is when the beek happens upon the Queen on the ground in front of the hive and effects a rescue and splitting the hive . Otherwise its as Dani says, the Queen perishes and the hive having swarmed continue on nurturing their swarm cells in the hive.

I’m not sure I follow.

If the Queen perished outside the hive, why would the bees still swarm without a Queen?

.............

I understand that the Queen will attempt to swarm even if clipped. But at least by clipping her, you prevent half your hive leaving (as they’ll likely go back inside if the Q falls out the door)

 

[Erichalfbee]

If the Queen perished outside the hive, why would the bees still swarm without a Queen?

The queen cells left behind will be looked after by the bees returning to the hive and the bees will swarm with the first virgin they allow to emerge followed pretty smartly by cast swarms

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The queen cells left behind will be looked after by the bees returning to the hive and the bees will swarm with the first virgin they allow to emerge followed pretty smartly by cast swarms

hence you get a prime swarm led by a virgin queen

 

[Hachi]

The queen cells left behind will be looked after by the bees returning to the hive and the bees will swarm with the first virgin they allow to emerge followed pretty smartly by cast swarms

Apologies, I should have been more clearer as per Dani's post above.

 

[Erichalfbee]

hence you get a prime swarm led by a virgin queen

Yes absolutely

 

[robmort]

Clipping is a swarm prevention technique if you can monitor your bees regularly e.g. if they're in your garden. Then you can gain a few days if a QC is missed and the potential loss of a swarm is delayed and you can recover the clipped queen.

 

[BernardBlack]

Clipping is a swarm prevention technique if you can monitor your bees regularly e.g. if they're in your garden. Then you can gain a few days if a QC is missed and the potential loss of a swarm is delayed and you can recover the clipped queen.

Yes that was my thinking on it.

 

[masterBK]

I clip my queens. Since I switched to mesh floors I have found that the clipped queen of the swarm sometimes ends up under the mesh floor to be joined by the swarm when it returns to the hive from a nearby tree. If not dealt with ( eg if happens while on long holiday) they soon build comb under the mesh floor and you can end up with two colonies with old queen under and daughter queen above the mesh floor

 

[JohnRB]

In his book 'A Guide to Bees & Honey' page 111, Ted Hooper states that unclipped queens will swarm when the first Q cell is sealed, whereas clipped queens won't go until the first virgin is ready to emerge. I have regularly seen the cunning bees drawing and sealing a Qcell between my 7 day inspections (or I missed one!) and this season in particular, my heart has sunk on finding a sealed Q cell at the start of an inspection, only to find the Q a few frames later. So on my very small sample size, it seems that Hooper is right. I haven't seen this written in any other beekeeping book and Hooper doesn't quote a source. Has anyone else seen this? It makes the case for clipping much stronger - in normal circumstances, if you stick with 7 day inspections, you shouldn't get to the point where the queen flops to the ground and perishes.

 

[Hachi]

In his book 'A Guide to Bees & Honey' page 111, Ted Hooper states that unclipped queens will swarm when the first Q cell is sealed, whereas clipped queens won't go until the first virgin is ready to emerge. I have regularly seen the cunning bees drawing and sealing a Qcell between my 7 day inspections (or I missed one!) and this season in particular, my heart has sunk on finding a sealed Q cell at the start of an inspection, only to find the Q a few frames later. So on my very small sample size, it seems that Hooper is right. I haven't seen this written in any other beekeeping book and Hooper doesn't quote a source. Has anyone else seen this? It makes the case for clipping much stronger - in normal circumstances, if you stick with 7 day inspections, you shouldn't get to the point where the queen flops to the ground and perishes.

Not necessarily so, I have experience of mother and daughter in the hive and I don't clip my Q's wings. What I don't understand with what goes on within the hive, is the bee's know/notice if the queen is damaged e.g. bad leg but dont seem to notice a partial wing??? Which, I assume, would result in supercedure in a similar way it occurs if the Q is damaged when handling etc. So, if you follow a 7 day inspection regime why clip?

 

[JohnRB]

"So, if you follow a 7 day inspection regime why clip?"

Because it is quite easy for the bees to draw and seal a Queen cell in less than 7 days. If you close the hive up after inspection and they immediately start to draw out a 1 day larva, it will be sealed about 5 days later and they will have swarmed 2 days before your next inspection

 

[JohnRB]

"So, if you follow a 7 day inspection regime why clip?"

Because it is quite easy for the bees to draw and seal a Queen cell in less than 7 days. If you close the hive up after inspection and they immediately start to draw out a 1 day larva, it will be sealed about 5 days later and they will have swarmed 2 days before your next inspection

Plus meant to say that queen and daughter in a colony is likely a supersedure - I have a colony in exactly that state at the moment and am wondering at what stage they will bump the old queen off.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In his book 'A Guide to Bees & Honey' page 111, Ted Hooper states that unclipped queens will swarm when the first Q cell is sealed, whereas clipped queens won't go until the first virgin is ready to emerge.

One of the things he was completely wrong about

 

[JohnRB]

One of the things he was completely wrong about

Is that based on personal experience? I've never seen anyone else argue for or against his statement

 

[elainemary]

Not necessarily so, I have experience of mother and daughter in the hive and I don't clip my Q's wings. What I don't understand with what goes on within the hive, is the bee's know/notice if the queen is damaged e.g. bad leg but dont seem to notice a partial wing??? Which, I assume, would result in supercedure in a similar way it occurs if the Q is damaged when handling etc. So, if you follow a 7 day inspection regime why clip?

Because in some areas of the country weather is unpredictable and often rains when inspections are due. Clipping just buys you extra time in these circumstances (until the first virgin is due). Also if you have multiple out apiaries, means you’re not run ragged trying to get round them all on the first reasonable day after a week of poor weather