Castellations & Brace

[Spikedog]

Marking a Q for beginner yesterday noted he is using castellations in super with Hoffman frames. The space between frames appears rather broad and bees in drawing out, are ‘naturally’(??) bridging between the opposing frames (a bloc). It will prove a nightmare of ‘forced separation’ come extraction time. The image I have is a block of comb with frames embedded therein. I am unfamiliar with castellations and use Manly. Is the design of the Hoffman not encompassing a bee space and will the larger space not encourage ‘brace’ filling? Hope the castellation users can advise and I will pass it on. Thanks, P.

 

[Arfermo]

No. JBM said somewhere recently on here that he uses 10 slot castellations in supers so that bees draw cells deeper for more honey to take off. Hoffmans or otherwise no problem.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have all my supers on ten space castellations. Some of the frames are self spacing. It won’t make any difference

 

[drex]

Foundation is better drawn on 11 frames to a box, but I use a mix of drawn and foundation with 10 frames and get no brace. With luck I get no brace on all foundation in 10 frame box.

 

[jeff33]

same as Drex for me. If its all undrawn they go in 11 frames supers though. I use castellation in all my supers with SN1 frames so I don't bother with those plastic spacers which are a pain!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

with 11 frame castellations - no worries whatsoever
with 10 frame castellations, it's a mixed bag most of the time they will draw the whole lot out perfectly (a good flow helps) and sometimes they get creative, so when I need foundation drawing on ten slot, I mix up frames with foundation in between drawn comb.
If you put a whole box of foundation in a super with a nine slot castellation........you get anarchy

 

[Newbeeneil]

I always start my SN1s on 11 spacings and once drawn put them onto 10 spacings and even 9's in some of my boxes.

 

[Finman]

If you put a whole box of foundation in a super with a nine slot castellation........you get anarchy

It will happen a quick learning

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Your friend needs to start off with a narrower spacing -make up a super without castellations and use 11 frames in that. As they get drawn or partially drawn they can go into a castellated box. Same thing can happen with Manleys. Sometimes bees don't like foundation and perfer to do their own thing. My guess is that they will prefer fresh fundation to stuff that's been hanging about for a long time and has gone stale. Once the comb is drawn, then it's OK. I have gone to 9 frames per box and 8 in WBC's. Nice fat comb.

 

[Michael Palmer]

After busting many knuckles, I removed all the castellations in bought supers, and threw them away.

 

[duncanpt]

OK, I understand the idea of starting with 11 frames to get a neat comb and then moving it to 10 (or fewer) to allow a deeper cell, but... Does the extra honey in the deeper cells in 10 frames outweigh the benefit of the extra frame if you stay at 11? What is the cut-over point: 10, 9, 8 frames?

A simple-minded view would be that unless each cell is made 10% deeper (and filled) you aren't gaining anything really. Or am I being very dense?

(PS: I too don't like castellations due to damage to my knuckles and gloves)

 

[Erichalfbee]

OK, I understand the idea of starting with 11 frames to get a neat comb and then moving it to 10 (or fewer) to allow a deeper cell, but... Does the extra honey in the deeper cells in 10 frames outweigh the benefit of the extra frame if you stay at 11? What is the cut-over point: 10, 9, 8 frames?

A simple-minded view would be that unless each cell is made 10% deeper (and filled) you aren't gaining anything really. Or am I being very dense?

(PS: I too don't like castellations due to damage to my knuckles and gloves)

It makes a difference uncapping 10% fewer frames if you’re doing it by hand

 

[Newbeeneil]

(PS: I too don't like castellations due to damage to my knuckles and gloves)

I don’t really understand this as you only really remove the frames from supers when extracting and the best way to get them out of the supers is to loosen them with a hive tool and stand the super on two strips of 2”x 2” timber that fit inside a super. They just pop up!
Now if you used them in brood box I could understand but TBH I could count on the fingers of one hand the times I’ve caught my knuckles and all my boxes have castellations.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does the extra honey in the deeper cells in 10 frames outweigh the benefit of the extra frame

Not really in my view or, to to me a bit more clear, I have all my supers on ten frames as
a)fewer frames to uncap
b) slightly thicker combs make uncapping easier.
the 'extra' amount of honey is a red herring really, also combs any thicker don't look so good packed as cut comb and the extra weight in the extractor is a faff.
a lot of commercials I know just use Hoffmans in the supers as it saves on castellations/spacers whatever.

I don’t really understand this as you only really remove the frames from supers when extracting and the best way to get them out of the supers is to loosen them with a hive tool and stand the super on two strips of 2”x 2” timber that fit inside a super. They just pop up!
Now if you used them in brood box I could understand but TBH I could count on the fingers of one hand the times I’ve caught my knuckles and all my boxes have castellations.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I don’t really understand this as you only really remove the frames from supers when extracting and the best way to get them out of the supers is to loosen them with a hive tool and stand the super on two strips of 2”x 2” timber that fit inside a super. They just pop up!
Now if you used them in brood box I could understand but TBH I could count on the fingers of one hand the times I’ve caught my knuckles and all my boxes have castellations.

Yes, they were in brood boxes. In my honey supers, they self space

 

[Newbeeneil]

Yes, they were in brood boxes. In my honey supers, they self space

I have castellations in brood boxes and don’t have problems but you are doing a few more boxes than me Michael!

 

[Spikedog]

Many thanks for the group’s very helpful advice/replies. I have passed a precis of same to the new beek in question. He has decided to remove the castellations for now, allow the bees draw the frames and then reinstate castellations to better effect as per recommendations. Good one! Regards, P