Capped QCs and artificial swarms

[TomH]

Hi all,

Inspected two hives this afternoon, both with recently capped and some open queen cells. Both hives however were boiling over with bees, and still plenty of eggs and young larvae. I couldn't find either queens, but given the bad weather we've had here the past few days, I made the assumption that is was possible the queen was still in both hives and they have not yet issued the prime swarm.

Following the Wally Shaw guides (There are queen cells in my hive, and the Apiary guide to swarm control), I have tried to do an artificial swarm on both hives. Moved the original hives from the stand, and replaced with a box with a couple of frames of eggs/larvae (no QCs), foundation and the original supers.

The parent hives have now been moved ~1m away, entrances facing a different way. My understanding that the flying bees return to the previous location, leaving the parent hive depleted of flying bees. The Wally Shaw book states that bees in the parent hive in the new location, will now tear down any QCs, as they are now depleted of flying bees, and emergency cells will be drawn in the hive in original location, with the two frames of eggs/larvae.

The next stage is 9-10 days later, return and tear down any emergency cells in the artificial swarm, finding the queen from the parent colony, and returning here to the artificial swarm, and the parent hive is left to raise their own emergency cells and requeen, with no need to thin out the cells.

Questions!?

Would you have done the same, or just assumed they have swarmed, thinned them down to one QC and left them to it?

As I was unable to find the queen, what happens now if i'm wrong and she has indeed swarmed? I guess if I find the QCs in the parent colony have not been torn down, I could assume they are queenless, and let them requeen? Should I thin them down to one cell? If this is the case, I suppose I could combine the artificial swarm with them too, as they will have drawn EQCs as well.

The second stage of the process suggests that there is no need to thin the emergency cells in the parent hive. Is this correct? I was always under the impression there's always the potential to swarm, when there's more than one QC.

Feel like i'm mostly on the right track... just a bit of a curveball with not being certain if the original queen is in there or not is making my head spin! I guess time will tell, with what I find in the next inspection?

Thanks

 

[enrico]

As no one else has replied.... I have never done an artificial swarm this way but t I can see no reason why it would not work. I would leave one large queen cell in the queen right hive just in case, but other than that you seem to have done well for a first time. Well done. I try and find the queen for my swarm control but they way you have done it may well work. Keep us in touch with how it goes on and maybe someone who uses this method will help.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The second stage of the process suggests that there is no need to thin the emergency cells in the parent hive. Is this correct? I was always under the impression there's always the potential to swarm, when there's more than one QC.

there is definitely a need to thin the EQCs down to one - it's been discussed here on another thread this week, your impression is the correct one

 

[ericbeaumont]

replaced with a box with a couple of frames of eggs/larvae (no QCs), foundation and the original supers.

I'll let you know how my one turns out as I did the same this week: flyers & one frame of open larvae on the original site. Wanted to get rid of the colony genetics, so gave a frame of larvae from a lovely colony, and will make up nucs if the EQCs are good.

To make the most of the thermals I reduced the hive to one BB only, so it's going to be rammed.

definitely a need to thin the EQCs down to one

I agree, and pondering on this since last week, have concluded that not only supersedure but also EQCs ought to be treated as an opportunity to swarm during the swarm season, and reduced to one. At other times I would leave them to it, or use the extras when sealed.

 

[user 6228]

cant find the queen?
try the sheet, bucket and board method... with that one you only need to know where the Queen isn't.

 

[Sutty]

cant find the queen?
try the sheet, bucket and board method... with that one you only need to know where the Queen isn't.

You're going to have to explain that!

 

[user 6228]

Its in beecraft July 2017 Vol 99 No 7
This is a method of doing an Artificial Swarm (AS), was inspired by the Taranov board. As we don’t mark or clip the queen, our queens are often elusive at AS time, so we hit on this idea after the frustration with other methods, which require you to find the queen in crowded hive and after succeeding, the colony still might swarm again the day after the AS, unless you take other measures with queen excluders, etc.

Our method not only doesn’t need you to find the queen, and it seeks to provide more and stronger behavioural cues to the colony that they have swarmed.
It needs a nice day and some room to work in.
The basic idea is to simulate a swarm of bees moving to a tree, where they camp “bivouac” for a while then move to a new nest. The difference is you provide the tree, the transport and the new nest.

• The tree: you need a bucket, a cotton sheet, and 600mm (2ft) sq piece of wood e.g. OSR board,
• The new nest: A full size hive, with a few foundation frames inside with the rest of complement of frames in reserve.
• Transport: A pair of stacked supers or any combination of kit that will hold the brood frames without damaging queen cells while you empty the brood box and floor. I will refer to this kit as “stacked supers” even though it might be other stuff in your Apiary particularly if you have 14x12 , commercials etc..

The existing brood, queen cell and proportion of bees will remain in the old location, the old queen and the bees that want to swarm with her will end up in the new location.

Swarm to the Tree

1. Put the bucket on the ground a few metres away from the hive to be AS, sheet over the bucket and the board on top of the sheet.
2. Moderately shake each frame on to the sheet CHECK THE QUEEN ISNT LEFT ON THE FRAME and put it in the “stacked supers”. Leave enough bees on the frame to look after the brood. Like all AS methods you are deciding how many bees remain behind. Only shake the queen cell frames gently or brush only a few bees off. If the queen is on the frame shake/move her on to the sheet.
3. Empty the old brood box and floor of clinging bees on to the sheet.
4. Put the old floor and brood box back in their original place
5. Take each frame from the “stacked supers”, remove surplus queen cells, CHECK THE QUEEN ISN’T ON THE FRAME and replace into the old brood box.

We have emptied the old hive and checked all the frames, The only place the queen should be is on the sheet… somewhere!
There is no rush, wait! The bees will cluster tightly under the board. If they become distressed or flying around, check the old brood box again.

Keep waiting, If you wait long enough, e.g. the time to make and drink a cup of coffee, a few bees will start to rise from the cluster and fly round the board for some time, then fly away in directions away the original hive You have just convinced some scouts to go and look for new home. So some of the bees have been convinced they have swarmed.
From the tree to the new nest

1. Build up the new hive/nest a few metres away from the original hive, with foundation frames at each end and a sheet to make a ramp up to the entrance.
2. Now pick up the board and shake into the hive. put the crownboard/roof on
3. Brush stragglers from the board and the “tree sheet” (from on top of the bucket) on to the sheet on leading into hive. They go very quickly into the hive
4. In only a few minutes they are all in.
5. Then gently add the remaining foundation frames to the new hive
6. Remove the sheet.
7. Feed the new hive in the next 24 hours to help them get started.

 

[TomH]

Hi all,

Thank you for all the advice offered here, knew it would be good stuff.

I checked both hives/splits yesterday evening.

For 'hive 1' the artificial swarm on the original stand had indeed drawn EQCs on the frames of eggs/brood I had left them with. Going through the parent colony, I found the original queen, so pleased that my initial assumption that despite the capped QCs they hadn't swarmed was correct.

I took down the EQCs in the artificial swarm, and transferred the frame with the queen on to them. A bit long winded, but happy now I have the flying bees and original queen in one hive and the brood/nurse bees in another. The manipulation hadn't quite worked as per the book, as there were some charged QCs still in parent colony. As the queen has now been removed though, i thinned them down to one, and will check again for more in 7 days and hopefully that will be their swarming instinct over.

For 'hive 2' I was less sure.

EQCs in the artificial swarm as expected. In the parent colony they had torn down most of the QCs. Pics below, the first has been chewed from the side, but not sure if the second picture is a torn down cell or an emerged one? It does look to have a ragged edge? They had torn down most of the QCs, but there were 2 capped cells left, and I could not find a queen, or eggs, the oldest larvae looked to be around 5-6 days.

As it was getting late and I was unsure, I closed them up. I'm thinking the parent colony might have actually swarmed as I couldn't find a queen or eggs and there were two capped QCs left? I was wondering if I could combine them back again, and leave with 1 QC and let them requeen? Do you think it would be worth tearing down the QCs in the parent colony and giving them a frame of eggs to double check they are queenless before I do so?

@ericbeaumont have you had a chance to look in at yours? Be interested to hear how you got on too?

 

[ericbeaumont]

have you had a chance to look in at yours?

Not yet, Tom, but I as I opened my eyes this morning with the glossy cat on my head, I recalled the need to check. Sunday is the first opportunity and I'll take a photo.

not sure if the second picture is a torn down cell or an emerged one? It does look to have a ragged edge

Emerged virgin.

combine them back again, and leave with 1 QC and let them requeen

Yes, but only when you're certain that a queen is not at home. If she is and you leave one QC, they may go, depending on colony strength and inclination.

You could make up from this box a two/three frame nuc with a sealed QC, as backup; shake in extra bees from supers and stuff the entrance lightly with grass.

tearing down the QCs in the parent colony and giving them a frame of eggs to double check they are queenless before I do so?

Yes, but as above, nuc the QCs rather than destroy because when mated they will give you options further down the road.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Be interested to hear how you got on

Took a look at 7.30am today, day 13 after an AS, leaving on the original site:
1 A frame of open brood (nearly all eggs and very young larvae)
2 Ten frames of drawn comb (no foundation ready)
3 The flyers

Predictably, as I took out the frame the QC lids began quivering, so let out about 8 good-sized virgins, cleared off the rest, checked the stores frames just in case (now rammed with pollen & nectar) and closed up. Had I the wherewithal I'd have used the virgins better, but wherewithal and kit and mental acuity is in short supply this week.

Two on one side and 16 on the other:

 

[Newbeeneil]

I released virgins in two hives today. I always keep a few queen cages in my bee suit for such eventualities and had 5 virgins in my pocket until I distributed them to a few Q- hives. I really enjoy watching them emerge.

 

[Sutty]

I released virgins in two hives today. I always keep a few queen cages in my bee suit for such eventualities and had 5 virgins in my pocket until I distributed them to a few Q- hives. I really enjoy watching them emerge.

Not many men can say they've had 5 virgins in their pocket!