Buckfast Bees

[jakethedog]

Surely that is the point when a cross becomes a breed. When the offspring always 100% look like the parents.

But as I understand it (having read a lot about the Buckfast bee, written by different breeders) they don't all look the same.... so presumably the 'breed' is based on behavioural characteristics. Open to offers on this one!

 

[The Cumbrian]

But as I understand it (having read a lot about the Buckfast bee, written by different breeders) they don't all look the same.... so presumably the 'breed' is based on behavioural characteristics. Open to offers on this one!

Perhaps I should have said performs to breed standards rather than looks the same. After all a breed only (normally) becomes a breed when it "breeds true" and somebody cares enough to set up breed standards. Differences in colour pattern etc are often allowed for in breed standards (well at least those I have come across).

 

[Crg]

Perhaps I should have said performs to breed standards rather than looks the same. After all a breed only (normally) becomes a breed when it "breeds true" and somebody cares enough to set up breed standards. Differences in colour pattern etc are often allowed for in breed standards (well at least those I have come across).

It's not complicated is it?

It's been pointed out many times over the years, and yet we still have the same silly discussion.

 

[jakethedog]

1. When a bee is described as a breed presumably it always produces 100% identical offspring anywhere in the world. Just as Poodle is a poodle in England or Australia.

Surely that is the point when a cross becomes a breed. When the offspring always 100% look like the parents.

Perhaps I should have said performs to breed standards rather than looks the same. After all a breed only (normally) becomes a breed when it "breeds true" and somebody cares enough to set up breed standards. Differences in colour pattern etc are often allowed for in breed standards (well at least those I have come across).

I think that I now follow what you're saying....

 

[The Cumbrian]

I think that I now follow what you're saying....

Sorry for my lack of clarity

 

[jakethedog]

Now, the thing which I'd like to hear is what are the 'breed' standards around the world. We now have quite a few US members, if they go to a US Buckfast supplier (who's original stock came from Br.Adam -please note, I'm not including English Buckfasts from Russell Apiaries in this for obvious reasons) will they get a bee which has any obvious likeness (behavioural or otherwise) to those bred say, in Denmark? What of the Canadian Buckfasts, how do they compare to the US lines?

The crux of this question, pedigrees aside, what constitutes a true Buckfast bee in 2001/2002. Please describe...

 

[The Cumbrian]

Jakethedog! You are so much better at putting things into words than I am. I suspect that if there are any breed standards (and I am too new to bees to know) they will vary slightly from country to country.

To return to farm livestock with which I am much more familiar. You soon notice that breed societies on their websites are often country specific - due to slight regional variations.

For me the absolute classic was the case of the Friesian and Holstein cattle. At one time the Brits called them Friesians and the Americans called them Holsteins. Then the brits decided they were more or less the same breed and started calling them Holstein Friesians (Things may have changed again).

I must admit to having an understanding problem with bee breeds. I can cope with looking at something the size of a bull and comparing conformation, colour etc but I just can't get my head round it on an insect scale.

 

[Crg]

Now, the thing which I'd like to hear is what are the 'breed' standards around the world. We now have quite a few US members, if they go to a US Buckfast supplier (who's original stock came from Br.Adam -please note, I'm not including English Buckfasts from Russell Apiaries in this for obvious reasons) will they get a bee which has any obvious likeness (behavioural or otherwise) to those bred say, in Denmark? What of the Canadian Buckfasts, how do they compare to the US lines?

The standards are set by various breeding groups.

Given the difference between breeds of other animals, it should come as no surprise that the US Buckfast are supposedly a bit different to the European ones

I've had queens from various breeding groups within Europe and there are minor variations between them too, ie different levels of swarmyness for example.

The crux of this question, pedigrees aside, what constitutes a true Buckfast bee in 2001/2002. Please describe...

A true Buckfast would be a bee bred along Br Adam's principles and originally from his stock.
If you care about having a true Buckfast then you can ask/check lineage.

If you just care about having good bees, then you just need to find a breeder who breeds good stock, it doesn't matter what it's called

 

[Crg]

I must admit to having an understanding problem with bee breeds. I can cope with looking at something the size of a bull and comparing conformation, colour etc but I just can't get my head round it on an insect scale.

If you want more information on bee specific breeding, there's a new book out which I think is quite good and up to date.

"Queen breeding and Genetics" by Eigil Holm

Northern Bee Books had it on sale at the National Honey Show for £18 I think.

 

[jakethedog]

The standards are set by various breeding groups.

so we're looking at various lines which have been developed according to the disperate requirements (eg. geographical or technical) of these groups but tied together by being

...a bee bred along Br Adam's principles

which in earlier generations came

originally from his stock.

This is all perfectly understandable but still fails to describe the uniform traits which you look for when assessing these different lines -the specific traits which hold all of the different Buckfast lines together as a worthwhile entity in itself while curtailing the amout of leeway a breeding group/commercial operation has in their individual breeding programme -who/what does control the direction of these different operations if they set their own standards?

 

[Norton]

Some good questions asked here. If you read BA's book you will see the most important traits that need to be selected for plus a number of secondary ones.
We all endeavour to breed towards having highly productive vigorous bees, that are docile, don't swarm excessively etc etc. It's up to each breeder whether he is successful at this or not.

 

[drstitson]

The big problem we have here is that because we have very few obvious visible traits (the remainder being behavioural and hence somewhat more subjective) some people cannot accept that a strain can be bred and maintained.

No-one is going to stand up and say a Gloucester Old Spot breeding programme is invalid if not based in Gloucester or relies solely on bloodlines exported abroad 50 years ago. So why are bees any different.

 

[jakethedog]

some people cannot accept that a strain can be bred and maintained.

No-one is going to stand up and say a Gloucester Old Spot breeding programme is invalid if not based in Gloucester or relies solely on bloodlines exported abroad 50 years ago. So why are bees any different.

I for one have little difficulty in accepting that a strain can be maintained -so much so that I have an advance order (confirmation dated 3/9/11) for a couple of Keld Brandstrups queens for next year -although I would probably not have gone with that particular line if I'd already received Mr.N's price list.

The Primorski bees stand as a good example of a naturally developing strain so I see no issue with the idea of dedicated breeders achieving the same end but that wasn't what I was asking, likewise while I appreciate the Glos Old Spot analogy that again isn't really addressing my question; If I go on line or even make a few phone calls to the right people i'm pretty certain that I can get some quite detailed information with regards to what is/is not acknowledged as 'right' for that breed of pig in both looks and behaviour.

Surely there's no better place, other than a meeting of world-wide Buckfast breeders, than a beekeeping forum to ask these same questions? If all breeding programmes follow the same detail, irrespective of location, then we have what I see as a stable strain, but once tight control over the different groups and commercial breeders is lost, how far down the lineage do they need to go before what they're producing ceases to be recognized as 'Buckfast' and becomes something else?

But then, is that natural improvement/change of characteristics necessarily a bad thing when compared to the other extreme of becoming a 'museum piece'? At present I'm trying to get some clear understandable answers from those who are already 'doing it for real' with 'Buckfast' bees. But all input is welcome!!

 

[For want of a better word]

Rare breed bees.... Why not !

 

[Norton]

SO! Poly Hive: You were a bee farmer and used AMM - which you are fond of.

Then you tried Buckfast - which you now hate because you had an unfortunale and unforgettable bad experience.

Then you tried AMM "Made in Greece" - which by all accounts turned out to be a disaster.

Now you are using Carnica from NZ - which have been fine till now (wait until swarming time comes around).

All this surely indicates some degree of instability in thought/action and indecisiveness.

Yet you are always in the front row when it comes to slagging BA and Buckfast bees even though over the years you have seen many people disagree with you about this and your views - why on earth do you persist in this relentless hunting of Buckfast?

Actually no one here actually knows what you beekeeping skills are. Maybe you are clumsy or have a negative aura about you that doesn't go down well with the bees. That you had a bad experience with bees shows that you probably did not realise when the moment came to quit messing around with them and they let you know that they weren't going to take anymore of it.

 

[dpearce4]

SO! Poly Hive: You were a bee farmer and used AMM - which you are fond of.

Then you tried Buckfast - which you now hate because you had an unfortunale and unforgettable bad experience.

Then you tried AMM "Made in Greece" - which by all accounts turned out to be a disaster.

Now you are using Carnica from NZ - which have been fine till now (wait until swarming time comes around).

All this surely indicates some degree of instability in thought/action and indecisiveness.

Yet you are always in the front row when it comes to slagging BA and Buckfast bees even though over the years you have seen many people disagree with you about this and your views - why on earth do you persist in this relentless hunting of Buckfast?

Actually no one here actually knows what you beekeeping skills are. Maybe you are clumsy or have a negative aura about you that doesn't go down well with the bees. That you had a bad experience with bees shows that you probably did not realise when the moment came to quit messing around with them and they let you know that they weren't going to take anymore of it.

Norton as you state here (highlighted in bold) you believe no one knows Polyhives beekeeping skills. This Includes yourself Norton. So why are you making such rude and personal assumptions about someone that you have no personal knowledge.

I think that maybe you should appolgise to Polyhive for the comments you made about his beekeeping skills.

As lots of people have said concentrate on the subject not the person.

 

[oliver90owner]

for the comments you made about his beekeeping skills.

Well, I, for one, did not see any. Some if's and maybe's but no direct accusations at all.

Maybe could have been a PM, but what the heck, it gives all and sundry, reading on the forum, a quick run-down and of where the comments are coming from. Most of us know that what PH may be grumping about and Norton's occupation is one and the same, so there will be a deal of disagreement for any criticism of the strain. And PH is being PH.

I've not particularly followed the thread because my bees are average mongrels and I know that if I buy in buckfast types (or any particular types, for that matter) they will be average mongrels before five years is up, unless I continue to buy in - which I don't do. If I were supplying nucs for sale, it may be a different situation. But I don't.

You may note that PH always slags MB at every opportunity, or at least always pushes an alternative anything. We get over it, round it or go through it. But the fact remains that PH has seen them all. My feeling is that most in beekeeping is a compromise and there are no ideals - or we would all be using the same hives, strain of bee, hive material, etc etc.

 

[Norton]

His actions indicate that he doesn't know when to call it a day or at least take a break. If you are working the bees and things start getting out of control you have to stop - not just make the situation worse and then complain about it. We are told that he is tired of this thread - I think the obvious thing to do is to stop giving negative input to it so as not to provoke reactions.

 

[dpearce4]

Norton,

his last post was #74 on the 1st Nov. That is 3 days ago we are now on post #98, 4th Nov. i dont understand your last post.

This is my first season beekeeping, i have read alot on this forum and from what i can make out that sometimes bees can be feisty just by going near the hive. this i know as i found out last week when i went to look at some. I had not even taken the roof off one as i had only just got to the site and was met with a couple of very angry bees. this isnt the first time either it has happened at my association apiary in june, 4 people were stung 20m from the hives including myself and my wife and the apiary manager before we had even suited up and gone anywhere near them.

Both these sites are normally very placid but on these occasions they were far from it. this was not because of our skills as we hadent even got to the point of handling the bees.

i have read numerous threads on here where people are warned that bees can suddenly turn like this. i am not saying this is because they are one breed or another but just that it does happen.

 

[Norton]

1/11 I was packing things
2/11 I was flying
3/11 I was busy
4/11 ditto...............