Buckfast Bees

[Crg]

Instrument Insemination? If so that is in my language is artificial hence the use of the term AI

The correct term in beekeeping language is II.

 

[Crg]

Very laudable no doubt but hardly up to date bee news was it?

And yes, quite right it is not complicated. A x cannot breed true. There is always a dominant gene.

Up to date bee news?!

Poly Hive you appear to have very little grasp of the the principles Gregor Mendel published 1866. You might want to address that before throwing around accusations of someone not being up to date.

 

[The Cumbrian]

So what more would you like to know?

Thank you Hivemaker. I see all sorts of "strains" of bee named and I am still trying to get my head round how "pure" these are or if they are more what I would refer to as a "type".

I am assuming that all those who say they have (say for the sake of argument) Buckfast requeen with queens that have been mated by II. Is this correct?

Secondly I began by asking if (again for the sake of argument) Buckfast bees were identical in all countries. In other words you couldn't tell a New Zealand strain from a GB strain. I am assuming this is correct but nobody has actually said as much.

Are there actually many islands, isolated areas/regions/countries which breed only a single "strain" of bees.

Isolated mating is mentioned. Is it really possible to allow natural mating in isolation other than those mentioned in the line above.

Sorry if I am appearing a bit slow on the uptake but the whole concept of differing strains/breeds of bee interests me. As has recently been mentioned on the forum surely developing a "strain" suitable for an area and climatic conditions would seem more sensible than hauling genetic material (bees) from one end of the globe to the other IF these breeds are really gentically identical.

Thank you for any information you can give me.

 

[Carsten]

Ah so now it is coming out. A Buckie fan cannot admit that BA was wrong?
PH

What is your mission in this tread ? I am Trying to understand it.

But seems you are experinced in selecting and breeding.

Since you are here I would very much appreciate you told us about your own breeding principles and experience with queen rearing. I like to learn. And if you could link to your peddigree, it would make it alot easier to follow you.
Thanks
Carsten

 

[Norton]

Secondly I began by asking if (again for the sake of argument) Buckfast bees were identical in all countries. In other words you couldn't tell a New Zealand strain from a GB strain. I am assuming this is correct but nobody has actually said as much.

No Buckfast in NZ as far as I know.

 

[Norton]

And if you could link to your peddigree, it would make it alot easier to follow you.

Whilst we are on the subject of pedigrees: A customer of mine once said of some queens that he bought from Germany "That nice pedigree certificate was the best thing about those queens as in other respects they were useless".

Not all pedigrees are published.

Many breeders do not issue updates.

Some pedigrees are incorrect or have pieces missing on purpose to cover up confidential breeding tools/methods.

Some of the codes used are only known to certain people for security matters, etc. etc.

Just because someone does not make public pedigrees does not mean that the bees aren't good!
So, they are NOT to be relied on too much.

 

[The Cumbrian]

No Buckfast in NZ as far as I know.

Thank you for that little gem but I am sure it doesn't alter the general meaning of what I am asking.

 

[Hombre]

I believe that PolyHive is a fan of AMM but currently runs Carniolans. Don't know if you do any breeding these days PH?
shooting blanks?

 

[Crg]

Secondly I began by asking if (again for the sake of argument) Buckfast bees were identical in all countries. In other words you couldn't tell a New Zealand strain from a GB strain. I am assuming this is correct but nobody has actually said as much.

It's no different to any other animal you would buy.

There is minor differences between breeders and countries. Just look at the American Kennel Club standards vs UK Kennel Club standards.

If you follow the link in a previous post of mine to see the various differences between Labradors.
You could still breed an American Labrador and with an English Labrador and end up with a Labrador.

Also think about if you were buying a greyhound - you'd look at a few breeders to see what their dogs were like, to see which produced the best performers etc.

Why on earth would bees be any different?

 

[Hivemaker.]

I am assuming that all those who say they have (say for the sake of argument) Buckfast requeen with queens that have been mated by II. Is this correct?

Secondly I began by asking if (again for the sake of argument) Buckfast bees were identical in all countries. In other words you couldn't tell a New Zealand strain from a GB strain. I am assuming this is correct but nobody has actually said as much.

Are there actually many islands, isolated areas/regions/countries which breed only a single "strain" of bees.

Isolated mating is mentioned. Is it really possible to allow natural mating in isolation other than those mentioned in the line above.

Yes either II or isolated mating stations for pure Buckfast or other brands.
No they would not be identical from every different part of the world,as this would be cloning as mentioned earlier.
Yes there are many isolated places/islands in different countrys used for mating queens with selected drones,i believe that Denmark for example has 12 or 13 such official places for Buckfast,4 places for Ligustica,3 places for Amm, 4 places for Carnica ect,other countrys do the same,and beekeepers can send thier virgin queens to these places to be mated,and some countrys do not allow the import of of bees,so they have no problem with mixed strains,Slovenia is one such place i believe,so they have Carniolan.

 

[Carsten]

Whilst we are on the subject of pedigrees: A customer of mine once said of some queens that he bought from Germany "That nice pedigree certificate was the best thing about those queens as in other respects they were useless".

Not all pedigrees are published.

Many breeders do not issue updates.

Some pedigrees are incorrect or have pieces missing on purpose to cover up confidential breeding tools/methods.

Some of the codes used are only known to certain people for security matters, etc. etc.

Just because someone does not make public pedigrees does not mean that the bees aren't good!
So, they are NOT to be relied on too much.

If we are talking the USA Starlinehybrids, Homer Park or racial I agree. But No one own the right to "hide" behind the brand Buckfast. Specially if you are a Buckfast queen supplier.
I am sure most serious Buckfast breeders outside UK will supply you with a pedigree.

And in last point: A pedigree does not make a queen better than the breeder
Carsten

 

[Crg]

Ah so now it is coming out. A Buckie fan cannot admit that BA was wrong?

What is your mission in this tread ? I am Trying to understand it.

Poly Hive's mission seems to be purely to spread misinformation.

When he's not on this forum I suspect it's probably on some dog forum arguing that, because the Labrador Retriever was bred relatively recently from the St. John's Water Dog, which itself emerged from a random-bred mix of English, Irish, and Portuguese working breeds that it must be an unstable cross and not a breed.

 

[Norton]

I have just ONE question for Polyhive: If a Buckfast queen is mated to Buckfast drones what will be the result?

 

[Poly Hive]

The answer Norton from my reading is it seems a Buckfast, but I have not finished.

The worst queen I have ever known in some 23 years was a Buckfast. I have had some hammerings in my time, and I am not talking to the amateurs here I am offering my experience to the Bee Farmers on the forum.

AMM can be nasty, I have had my right hand glove so covered in stings the leather is invisible. The buckfasts were worse, a lot worse. And you know Norton where they came from as I told you.

I was told today I am a troll or very stupid. Seems I upset a Buckie fan.

My credentials: Ex Bee Farmer. Written and lectured on bees for some 20+ years.

Ran AMM for near 15 years.

Now running lovely bees bred in NZ but genetically Alpine.

Do you think I could be a Troll with my post count?

Stupid? Possibly but having held down various reasonably high powered jobs I rather doubt it.

My beliefs. A cross is a cross and cannot breed true even if the devout believe otherwise.

AMM exists.

Brother Adam was a very clever man but not at all capable of making the decision that all the native bees were wiped out. He was a novice at the time and I seriously doubt the legend he promoted for the following reasons.

1. He was a novice and behind the walls of Buckfast Abey. His knowledge of the happenings in the UK, and I stress UK not Dartmoor or Devon was limited by the reading of the papers.

2. AMM survived nicely thanks in various pockets of the UK and esp Scotland.

3. More than one person that I sincerely trust told me that the bees I was working were indeed AMM.

I am frankly sick of this debate. Facts are facts.

The person who slagged me in PM is on ignore.

I have better things to do than argue over the virtues of a bee that requires constant breeding to stay still.

PH

 

[Norton]

My beliefs. A cross is a cross and cannot breed true even if the devout believe otherwise.

You are welcome to you beliefs whatever they are. The facts are however that the use of Buckfast bees around the world proves you wrong. The history of the Buckfast bee proves you wrong. Thousands of Buckfast beekeepers around the world prove you wrong.

Africanised honey bees in the USA are hybrids - they breed true enough in behaviour despite being heavily hybridised.

I don't think you are stupid at all, a bit narrow-minded and obstinate perhaps - but each to his own.

 

[Crg]

The answer Norton from my reading is it seems a Buckfast, but I have not finished.

So it does bred true?

I was told today I am a troll or very stupid. Seems I upset a Buckie fan.

The principles discussed are very simple. You're been given plenty of examples and help and yet you always join these threads with to peddle the same nonsense.

My credentials: Ex Bee Farmer. Written and lectured on bees for some 20+ years.

Your "credentials" are plainly on show for any knowledgeable person to see.

Do you think I could be a Troll with my post count?

Troll has nothing to do with post count.

My beliefs. A cross is a cross and cannot breed true even if the devout believe otherwise.

but a breed can.

AMM exists.

If you read the title of this thread - we're talking about Buckfast bees, not AMM.

 

[oliver90owner]

If you read the title of this thread - we're talking about Buckfast bees, not AMM.

And I thought it had 'transformed' to something interesting - breeding Labradors and Spaniels (and pure-bred Jack Russels?), or Crufts.

 

[Crg]

If you read the title of this thread - we're talking about Buckfast bees, not AMM.

And I thought it had 'transformed' to something interesting - breeding Labradors and Spaniels (and pure-bred Jack Russels?), or Crufts.

It would be a much easier discussion.

Some how everyone gets breeds when it comes to two or four legged things, but as soon as you stick a couple of extra legs on it confuses them.

 

[drstitson]

a cross is a cross sure

however with repeated crossing and back-crossing it is possible to fix one or more characteristics within a strain.

 

[The Cumbrian]

My beliefs. A cross is a cross and cannot breed true even if the devout believe otherwise.

Surely that is the point when a cross becomes a breed. When the offspring always 100% look like the parents.

This surely is how breeds are created like the Luing cattle crosses between Shorthorn and Highland until (by selection) they bred true.

http://http://www.luingcattlesociety.co.uk/index.php?page=history