Buckfast Bees

[the naked beekeeper]

SO! Poly Hive: You were a bee farmer and used AMM - which you are fond of.

Then you tried Buckfast - which you now hate because you had an unfortunale and unforgettable bad experience.

Then you tried AMM "Made in Greece" - which by all accounts turned out to be a disaster.

Now you are using Carnica from NZ - which have been fine till now (wait until swarming time comes around).

All this surely indicates some degree of instability in thought/action and indecisiveness.

I don't see it as instability at all.

In fact the more strains of bee one works with/has worked with, the better placed I believe one is to comment upon them generically.

There are good and points to every strain and even the actual perception of those 'good' and 'bad' points are coloured by every beekeeper's views, wants and needs. What is a 'good' trait for a bee?

To that end, as rab says, beekeeping is a compromise.

To work within a strain has to be the goal IMO, to select and better the desired traits one seeks. Working within a strain, enables a better chance of results, as opposed to working with genes all over the place. You focus your attention and start with something already existing in a successful form.

PH aside, I think it is rather sad that BA didn't put any work into the British bee and working with it to improve it.

Bees have been around much longer than beekeepers have and certainly, some diseases may test the species but certainly in the end the bee will evolve and survive.

Aside from the fact that BA observed massive losses within the abbey, why not seek out virulent strains showing signs of resistance? That's what many in the gardening world do with seeds, to select for resistance to blight etc. That's what many are doing now with varroa.

Varroa will not go away, so the bees will have to cope.

The same with IOW disease..it would not go away, so work and observe with the bee in propagating better genes to cope with it.

Instead the Buckfast bee was born which is where the real serious start of mongrelisation started in the UK IMO, by actively encouraging exports indirectly, it gained popularity and momentum to look abroad for better genes and start combining them with ours. The search for the 'perfect bee' syndrome was on and I think it is sad and rather misses the point of beekeeping.

Maybe it was partially an excuse to travel the world and justify a reason to seek out other ways of working with his love for bees, but to me, the beekeeper must always seek to work with the native bees. Why? Er, because they're native, ergo, they are best suited to cope with the climatic conditions etc. That is not to say that they won't be severely tested by diseases and such like, as any strain in any country would be.

To work with your bees, is to empower yourself and to strive for higher standards. It should be enjoyed. And collectively, it is to the benefit of the nation.

IMO it is lazy to import bees.
It is a romantic idealism.
And it is removed from nature and natural law.
Much aside from the fact that it just adds to the problem of mongrelisation and further reduces the ability to produce better queens except by II.

If there would be a ban, then beekeepers would be forced to work with their bees.
The poor colonies would gradually die out.
And results would slowly become more accurate. Instead, the hotch potch gene pool we have is like a roulette wheel. Beekeepers just want a perfect bee. The thing is, even if they get it, they will then be sabotaged by their own ethics in the subsequent generations when their perfect queen mates with a load of mongrel genes from all around the world with unpredictable results.

For me, I don't like the Buckfast bee.
Maybe great initially for beginners, but that's all for me.
In my experience, the queens just brood brood brood. It might look mighty impressive, and kudos to have such massive hives with such amazing temper, but it's not consistent with Britain and definitely not for the Cornish maritime climate. (I am not that far from the abbey.)

Beekeeping is not perfect. Work with your bees. Yes you will get bad temper and bad traits but you can gradually select to eliminate them. Choose a strain and work within it, to produce more consistent results.

You can keep your Buckfast bee.

 

[Poly Hive]

It appears that some on this thread are forgetting the ethos of the forum.

From the rules.

"BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.

If you don't agree with someone's view, EXPRESS your views rather than tear down theirs. You have the option on EVERY POST to report that post to admin, use this to quickly make us aware of a possible problem, we will take it from there.

Be kind to other members, do not put them down, bait them into fighting or do anything to create a fight whether in open forum or private messaging. Trashing another member will surely lead you toward the banishment door quickly. New members are expected to abide by the same rules as seasoned members. We believe that Ignorance of a rule is NO excuse to break it – you are expected to read the bylaws and strictly abide by them.

*A good forum adage is to always kick the ball not the player when replying to a thread that has a topic you feel strongly about"

I have as much right to dislike porridge as you have the right to enjoy it every morning. That is called freedom of speech.

I have the right to experiment with different strains as any other beekeeper does.

For many years I confined myself, both from respect for the native bee and for my fellow beekeeprs to use AMM. After moving into the Midlands that self imposed "rule" is lifted and so....I am thoroughly enjoying my "Alpine NZ bees"

As for implying that they are ultra swarmy, well I have been assured of the complete opposite, and the fact that Bee Farmers are queuing up to use them suggests something different.

I have always thought that if Brother Adam had chosen to use his considerable breeding genius to concentrate on AMM we would have a vastly better situation in the UK rather than the shambles that currently trundles on with no foucus or aim.

Enjoy your Buckfasts, just dinna seek to impose your thoughts on others either by implication or smear tactics.

The forum should be above such.

Feel free to remove this post Admin.

PH

 

[mbc]

Dear PH, the forum is rather flat at the moment and personally, I was quite looking forwards to your response to Nortons attack but I have to say, I'm disappointed.
Please reconsider and give a more robust response, there's nowt wrong with a bit of forum argy bargy so long as its not personally offensive ! ( IMHO )

FWIW I'd rather Bro Adam had stayed in Germany and never graced us with his interfering.
I'm sure even Crg and Norton would concede that alot of the supposedly buckfast rubbish which has been imported into the UK over the years has done the name of Buckfast and the gene pool no good at all.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

dpearce4

"This is my first season beekeeping, i have read alot on this forum and from what i can make out that sometimes bees can be feisty just by going near the hive. this i know as i found out last week when i went to look at some. I had not even taken the roof off one as i had only just got to the site and was met with a couple of very angry bees. this isnt the first time either it has happened at my association apiary in june, 4 people were stung 20m from the hives including myself and my wife and the apiary manager before we had even suited up and gone anywhere near them".


Very late to open a hive??? I would not tolerate bees with behaviour like that and in my view the responsible queen should be given the chop!

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I would quite like to try a Buckfast or two or a Norton flavour - for interest sake - although I am not a fan of the idea importing.

However I have spoken to a few 'old boy' - beekeepers who have been running dozens of hives for dozens of years in the local area and over the years they have bred from the best, culled the worst and have developed a strain of local mongrel that works for them and works in the geographical area. They just get on with their trade, their bees are not very swarmy, hardy, reasonably productive, frugal, reasonably well behaved, you don't have to worry about a second generation cross that becomes a queen of agressive nutters and I see no reason why most beekeepers can't aspire to that.

 

[oliver90owner]

and I see no reason why most beekeepers can't aspire to that.

Here, here!

BUT: Just doesn't work these days with the multitude of beeks with only the one or two colonies,. Then there are those that simply want the maximum crop achievable, so may not work for them. Then there are those who do not wish to spend the time and effort refining their bees' 'breeding'.

It all adds up to the modern-day fashion of 'don't repair - but a new one', so not so many of the old school left around. Just unfortunate, but I believe that is the score these days, with, effectively, most belonging to a 'throw-away' society.

RAB

 

[mbc]

grass is always greener etc.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What we need in this country is a setup similar to what they have in Germany and Denmark ect.

 

[mbc]

What we need in this country is a setup similar to what they have in Germany and Denmark ect.

Quite right, but unfortunately what weve managed to achieve in this country is " The healthy bees plan" which bizarely doesnt seem at all interested in breeding better bees ( prhaps there wouldnt be enough cups of tea or travelling expenses involved )

 

[Norton]

just dinna seek to impose your thoughts on others either by implication or smear tactics.

But you are a champion at this!

 

[Poly Hive]

Norton please follow the ethos of the forum and cease these personal attacks.

I have no axe to grind with you I just do not like Buckfasts nor the hero worship of BA.

End of.

I am putting you on block.

PH

 

[Norton]

I think it is rather sad that BA didn't put any work into the British bee and working with it to improve it.

Obviously didn't think much of them when they all died from acarine - at least the ones in the immediate area of Buckfast. As most of us know, it was only the imports from Liguria and their ssp hybrids with AMM that had some natural resistance. In strain improvement can only go so far and the key to better bees is by introducing desirable genes from strains that already have these. If a strain lacks some character and the genes are not present in the strain then no amount of selection is going to make it just suddenly appear out of the blue. The comment above to improve AMM first of all confirms that it is not the ideal ssp and much room exists for improvement but at the same time shows a lack of understanding of even the basics behind the development of the Buckfast strain.

Aside from the fact that BA observed massive losses within the abbey, why not seek out virulent strains showing signs of resistance?

Actually that is exactly what BA did.

Instead the Buckfast bee was born which is where the real serious start of mongrelisation started in the UK IMO, by actively encouraging exports indirectly, it gained popularity and momentum to look abroad for better genes and start combining them with ours. The search for the 'perfect bee' syndrome was on and I think it is sad and rather misses the point of beekeeping.

I think you are incorrect here - imports were made long before BA came on the scene. There is a huge difference between controlled hybrid-line breeding and uncontrolled matings between heavily mongrel bees.

Maybe it was partially an excuse to travel the world and justify a reason to seek out other ways of working with his love for bees, but to me, the beekeeper must always seek to work with the native bees. Why? Er, because they're native, ergo, they are best suited to cope with the climatic conditions etc.

Buckfast bees were developed in the UK, so are British and the British climate is not a problem for them. Buckfast bees have proved themselves around the world from Canada to Texas, from Israel to Finland. They are much more adaptable than any other strain.

IMO it is lazy to import bees.
It is a romantic idealism.
And it is removed from nature and natural law.
Much aside from the fact that it just adds to the problem of mongrelisation and further reduces the ability to produce better queens except by II.

Do you eat wheat, potatoes, tomatoes or use tobacco? All these, plus many other things you eat were imports at one time. Yet you accept these as being natural.
If you are unable to control the mating of your bees then don't expect to ever improve them.

 

[dpearce4]

Hiya Hebeegeebee.

the reason i had gone up to the hives last weekend was to fit my mouseguards, maybe i should have said that not saying before i lifted the roofs of them. mind you on going up i have found that i having hefted to see if they were ok for stores i became imperative that i have had to go into them to feed them due to their using up stores at a fast rate.

at present i do not believe that the hives should be requeened as it is definatly the wrong time of year to do this, as im sure you well know. come spring if they are still like this then trust me they will be requeened at the earliest oppertunity but still with local mongral queens as i believe they are the best for this area, being both high downland and coastal.

I have spoken to my mentor who assures me that the hives i have at my other site that are much more gentle will be able to produce the queens we desire.

I appologise for the little confusion that my post caused you. and hope this has cleared it up.

doug

 

[Headnavigator]

Norton please follow the ethos of the forum and cease these personal attacks.

I am putting you on block.

PH

Not the first to have done so, PH

 

[For want of a better word]

Curious as not in loop of all the codeifications...
on block ? as in Catherine Howard........
AMM? Apis melifera melifera

BA?.. Brother Adam as in the Beekie Monk of Buckfast Abbey in Devon
BB .. Brood Box
PH .....as in minus the log of hydrogen ion concentration ie acid or alkaline?
OP original Post
OA Oxallic Acid

RSI...... prolific posters syndrome.............................?

 

[Norton]

RSI......

Seems like some have it in their brain and not in their hands!

 

[Hombre]

RSI

Brain in hand perhaps

 

[Phil280]

Hi there.

100% with "the naked beekeeper".

The best bee for your area is the local bee...that is why it evolved there...in simple words - that's why nature put it there.

The Buckfast Bee is a hybrid of bees from all over Europe, the Middle East and Africa, a registered trademark and in my view as useful as a boil on your back side.
In Austria in 2004 90% of all bees were carniolan, 7% A.m.mellifera, 3% were Buckfast.
Those 3% - mainly kept by only a few big money making businesses at the time ruined decades of local queen breeding efforts. Now it is as good as impossible to breed good queens at your own apiary.
As I mentioned before - greed is the first step to doom.

Sadly legislation moves with the speed of a slug and only 4 of our 9 counties here have a ban on Buckfast (or any other honey bee apart from A.m.c. and A.m.m. in some areas) which is not sufficient.
And just to make a point here...the largest beekeeper in Austria with 7000+ colonies uses and breeds local A.m.carnica only!

Greets
Phil

 

[Norton]

In Austria in 2004 90% of all bees were carniolan, 7% A.m.mellifera, 3% were Buckfast.
Those 3% - mainly kept by only a few big money making businesses at the time ruined decades of local queen breeding efforts. Now it is as good as impossible to breed good queens at your own apiary.
As I mentioned before - greed is the first step to doom.

Do you really think that the 3% Buckfast would be able to influence the 90% Carnica? I find it very hard to believe this. They are outnumbered 30 to 1.

Surely the 7% AMM would have more of an influence, by a factor of at least 2 yet you choose to ignore this

I've been to Austria by the way - visited Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger and thought that they had very nice bees and a good beekeeping operation. They are hard working, successful and certainly know what they are doing.
They are commercial beekeepers and of course make money from their bees - nothing wrong with that.
They used to work with Carnica, but have found Buckfast to be superior in every respect - maybe you should pay them a visit.

 

[Chris B]

The best bee for your area is the local bee...that is why it evolved there...in simple words - that's why nature put it there.

This would be quite true if your objective as a beekeeper was to keep wild bees. Natural selection gives you a bee that has little or no surplus honey because resources have been diverted into swarming. It's also likely to be a bit tetchy. Desirable traits for survival are not the same as desirable traits for a managed colony. Your local bees didn't evolve in hives nor did they evolve in the landscape or climate they find themselves in today. I've seen some fantastic AMM-types but they were only good because of human influence on their breeding, not natural selection.