Brood boxes out of space

[Torq]

Hi All,
It's a strange year! I've never had so many bees and now it's causing a problem. 2 of my hives on national brood boxes are completely full of brood and stores, there is practically no space available for laying until the current capped brood hatches.
I the mean time the bees are working like crazy bringing in pollen and ivy nectar. Both hives have a super (and queen excluders) on and they are also being filled.
I've never had this situation where I've been so short on space and I need a good suggestion on what to do ASAP as I'm away for a week from Saturday and I'm afraid that what with the lack of space and this unseasonal weather that they will swarm. If there was some way of forcing the stores upwards I think the problem might be resolved but for now I'm worried!
Torq.

Oh, and to make things just that bit worse, I've just shook out a hive that had gone queen -ve and all 5 frames of those bees have split between the other two.

 

[brianmc]

I'm wondering the same thing. I'm adding a super of drawn comb under each hive where I can.

The weather is expected to go into decline from later this week though...

 

[Dishmop]

I'm wondering the same thing. I'm adding a super of drawn comb under each hive where I can.

The weather is expected to go into decline from later this week though...

Why adding it underneath?

 

[itma]

Why adding it underneath?

Sensible.
Avoids large cold space above the bees.
"In the wild" they expand by extending their comb downwards …

The trendy word is "nadiring".

 

[Dishmop]

Sensible.
Avoids large cold space above the bees.
"In the wild" they expand by extending their comb downwards …

The trendy word is "nadiring".

Agreed, but not for storing food they dont.

 

[Rio]

Added a super under a national hive today. The bees were bearding massively on the front of the hive and needed the space. Rain arriving this evening, so they probably appreciated the additional shelter. I had a hive earlier in the summer which had stored everything in the supers. Fortunately, I checked stores when removing the supers and was able to feed. I'd be cautious about supering above at this time of year.

 

[brianmc]

I don't really believe that they'll fill another super at this point but they really must be out of space in some of my boxes the way they've been pulling in stores.

An empty drawn super underneath gives them the option of extending the broodnest down as they pull in whatever more they do. Keeping as large a brood nest as possible at the moment is what I was concerning myself with.

Also, underneath hopefully means that come next spring it will be empty and available for normal use again.

Also, it provides a good baffle from the wind to the open mesh floor over winter.

I'm still only a newbie but it seemed to be a good plan.

I'm more concerned about some poly nucs that I started apiguard treatment on 3 + 1/2 weeks ago. I expected them to remain nuc sized for winter but the last few weeks has had an amazing flow. Come the weekend, I'll take a look inside once the apiguard is finishing.

 

[jagetc]

I also have this problem but added to it is the obvious one of increased numbers of varroa which I had hoped to treat soon. With 8 frames of brood in one of my hives and 6 in the other - I know we are not supposed to write 'help' but....! My friendly bee guru suggested an empty super on top of the brood box - any thoughts?

 

[itma]

I also have this problem but added to it is the obvious one of increased numbers of varroa which I had hoped to treat soon. With 8 frames of brood in one of my hives and 6 in the other - I know we are not supposed to write 'help' but....! My friendly bee guru suggested an empty super on top of the brood box - any thoughts?

Welcome to the forum.

Do get on with some form of varroa treatment asap - particularly if you are seeing daily natural drops approaching 10 mites.

Better to put the new box under the brood than over it at this time of year. You don't want a cold empty box above the bees - they'll try to ignore it, but be colder than otherwise.
Underneath, they may try to use some of it, if they think they need it.
Search the forum for the word 'nadir'. Its become trendy.
Oh and definitely no Queen Excluder in the hive over winter ('super' means above the QX to many).

 

[irishguy]

Hi All,
It's a strange year! I've never had so many bees and now it's causing a problem. 2 of my hives on national brood boxes are completely full of brood and stores, there is practically no space available for laying until the current capped brood hatches.
I the mean time the bees are working like crazy bringing in pollen and ivy nectar. Both hives have a super (and queen excluders) on and they are also being filled.
I've never had this situation where I've been so short on space and I need a good suggestion on what to do ASAP as I'm away for a week from Saturday and I'm afraid that what with the lack of space and this unseasonal weather that they will swarm. If there was some way of forcing the stores upwards I think the problem might be resolved but for now I'm worried!
Torq.

Oh, and to make things just that bit worse, I've just shook out a hive that had gone queen -ve and all 5 frames of those bees have split between the other two.

Are you thinking of opening your hives in this weather? Reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking mines is going to swarm as well seeing as my boxes are full as well. When I added the extra brood box for my treatment, the bees near had 2 frames full uncapped and it has me worried about the box below. I've been advised not to on here but they haven't seen inside these hives but I'm still undecided what to do

 

[Pete D]

Are you thinking of opening your hives in this weather? . I've been advised not to on here but they haven't seen inside these hives but I'm still undecided what to do

Whats wrong with opening hives in this weather, this is not a normal year, its 19 degrees here and sunny, my bees are piling it in, I will be opening and doing what is required when required.
If you need to do it then do it, dont dither and keep your fingers crossed till next March, BUT be brief and efficient and have a plan to deal with whatever you find with all the equipment you might need at hand.
Do it at the right time of the day and dont do it just for curiosity sake do it for a specific colony management reason.
My reasons will be numerous and hive specific ie
Leave them alone
Check laying queen
Check for stores
Remove supers
Remove stores frames
Unite
Remove sealed brood frames from 6 frame poly's with no space for stores
Check for disease (bee inspector checking hives 10 miles away today as foul brood nearby)
etc

I wont do it if its tipping down or freezing cold though unless I consider it life or death for the colony.

Good luck

 

[Torq]

The weather here is an unseasonal 19 deg! I let the weather decide if I'm going to inspect my bees and not advice from a book or person who is going purely by the date.

Above 10deg and I'll do a quick look, over 14 and I don't see a problem with inspecting any time of the year. Obviously I'm not going to split a winter cluster if that's how they are.

I added an extra frame to a 3 frame nuc last Friday. That frame is now drawn and has eggs and stores so I've just added another.

I'm expecting that next Saturday week I'll come home to queenless hives and queen cells everywhere that haven't a hope of producing mated queens. I think I'll have to put excluders on the front of my hives to try and keep the queens in if they attempt to swarm. I know this will trap the drones but that's the price they'll have to pay.

 

[irishguy]

Whats wrong with opening hives in this weather, this is not a normal year, its 19 degrees here and sunny, my bees are piling it in, I will be opening and doing what is required when required.
If you need to do it then do it, dont dither and keep your fingers crossed till next March, BUT be brief and efficient and have a plan to deal with whatever you find with all the equipment you might need at hand.
Do it at the right time of the day and dont do it just for curiosity sake do it for a specific colony management reason.
My reasons will be numerous and hive specific ie
Leave them alone
Check laying queen
Check for stores
Remove supers
Remove stores frames
Unite
Remove sealed brood frames from 6 frame poly's with no space for stores
Check for disease (bee inspector checking hives 10 miles away today as foul brood nearby)
etc

I wont do it if its tipping down or freezing cold though unless I consider it life or death for the colony.

Good luck

You see, I've been trying my best to follow advice on here about my hives, I suggested I might open my hives up because 1 to check for supersedure cell after maq treatment and 2, because the hive was near full and I'd say its full now. I was told, leave them until spring! I'm thinking this is a bad idea because the bees have been mad busy and I'd say their going to swarm because of congestion. My options are to open, set them back a day or 2 again and with that I'll get slated on here again because I should have left them alone. On the other hand, if I go with the advice on here and don't inspect, I could lose a swarm again and sure the people giving me advice with either blame me for treating with maqs or just say, ack sure, sure its what bees do. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I know in normal circumstances in early Oct, I shouldn't go near them but this year is rare and I'm thinking I should. I'm still undecided thou

The weather here is an unseasonal 19 deg! I let the weather decide if I'm going to inspect my bees and not advice from a book or person who is going purely by the date.

Above 10deg and I'll do a quick look, over 14 and I don't see a problem with inspecting any time of the year. Obviously I'm not going to split a winter cluster if that's how they are.

I added an extra frame to a 3 frame nuc last Friday. That frame is now drawn and has eggs and stores so I've just added another.

I'm expecting that next Saturday week I'll come home to queenless hives and queen cells everywhere that haven't a hope of producing mated queens. I think I'll have to put excluders on the front of my hives to try and keep the queens in if they attempt to swarm. I know this will trap the drones but that's the price they'll have to pay.

What should I do if I open up hives and there's no room to lay or store anymore feed/brood. Would you add a new super under or above or just add in some frames with foundation just to give them time to fill these out before weather changes.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What should I do if I open up hives and there's no room to lay or store anymore feed/brood. Would you add a new super under or above or just add in some frames with foundation just to give them time to fill these out before weather changes.

I would, and have on six colonies, add a super of drawn frames under the brood box.
I think it's too late to be splitting the nest with foundation. It's getting cold soon.

 

[irishguy]

I would, and have on six colonies, add a super of drawn frames under the brood box.
I think it's too late to be splitting the nest with foundation. It's getting cold soon.

One thing that concerns me thou, opening the hive and they might get some chalk brood like I got 2 weeks ago. How long does it take to take the bees to get back up to temps it needs after one opens it up in 14-17 degrees. I checked the weather here and its what were getting tommorw.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well, the beauty of adding room underneath is that you can do it without disturbing the brood box. The bees will use it if they need to and it will not be vain space to heat above if they don't. In the spring it will likely be empty. If there is brood there it is a simple matter to put an excluder over it till it emerges then pop it on top....or take it away.

 

[Pete D]

Irish guy,
My crown boards would be off for 3 or 4 minutes tops.
Pop crown board, remove dummy board, slide 3 frames over to side check 4th frame for bias, glance down side of 3rd & 5th frame without removing it, replace frame 4, slide 5 and 6 over and check 7, glance down side of 6 & 8.
If all well slide back together, replace dummy, glance down between tops of 3 frames either side looking for capped stores and crown board back on.
I only lifted frames 4 and 7 out of the brood box.
Whilst doing the above I would of spotted sealed stores, bias, drone brood, queen cells, space, number of frames of brood, amount of bees etc quick mental assessment and either close up or take action, usually if it needs action you would know after the first frame was lifted.
I would only do this if I had reason to do so, genuine reason not whim.
If appropriate I would finish all hives in an apiary and then take action on the ones that needed it as quite often I can sit for 5 minutes and formulate a plan for the ones that need it.
At this time of the year I take action if I believe the hive would die out without out it.

Good luck to you and your bees

 

[BeeJayBee]

One thing that concerns me thou, opening the hive and they might get some chalk brood like I got 2 weeks ago.

Maybe you should read a little more about chalkbrood. It's a fungus, exacerbated by damp conditions, that is latent in most colonies.
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=200

 

[Torq]

Irishguy. You need to get on the phone and talk to local experienced beekeepers to see what they are doing now and follow their lead.

 

[richardbees]

Erica
Out of interest, exactly why are you adding a 'super' under your 14x12 ?

My National BBs are packed to overflowing but I can't see the need to give more space over Winter,
Richard