Breeding disease tolerancy

[Finman]

Seems fine but how difficult it is mentaly and in pranctice.

+ In UK european fouldbrood is a bad disease. Via my own experience and via scientic experts' dvice you get ridd off when you chance the bee stock. But giving upp from "my national bee stock" it is difficult.

+ I had a bad chalk brood 15 years and then it was enough. I byed from several sources queen to renew the genepool. Then I reared extra queen and eliminated all queen which showed chalk brood signs. It took 3-4 years to get ridd off it. Still every year I kill 1 or 2 sick queens.


+ Nosema tolerancy. I was satiesfied when chalk brood project succeeded. Then I bought 3 queen from middle Finland. In spring most of my colonies had become quite small during winter. All those 3 colonies were same size as in Autumn. So I noticed that my bees genepool was not at all in condition.

I took daughters from those 3 queens and I may say that they were healthy but swarmy


- Varroa tolerancy I do not imagine that I could breed varroa tolerant bees. It is a huge job at least to professionals. Hobbiest seems to be lucky in their breeding. So they at least say. ODD!!!

- Hygienic behaviour. In many countries hygienic behaviour is in breeding list. It need hygienic tests to find out what are those colonies. Like in Australia in first tests it was shown that 20% of beestock show hygienic behaviour. To mate those stock you get the percent bigger.

How many of you have done the hygienic test? It is dreams that it is same as varroa tolerancy.


- Resistancy to AFB has been breeded tens of years. It may be better but not succeeded. You must note that diseases breed themselves too and adapt to new situation.

- Inbreeding .....when you use the same bee stock sveral years danger of inbreeding is evident.

- hybrid vigour you may have a spelded hive and when you take daughters from that hive, they may be what ever. It means that the mother hive has had hybrid vigour

- When you breed different bees stocks, the genepool will be healed. Non swarmy, calm and many good domestic animal behaviour are anomaly in bees natural life and those anomaly will be healed. At its worst you get killer bees.

 

[blackbrood]

S
- Varroa tolerancy I do not imagine that I could breed varroa tolerant bees. It is a huge job at least to professionals. Hobbiest seems to be lucky in their breeding. So they at least say. ODD!!!.

Finman , you are to defeatist. You accept that you cannot do something and then assume no one else is capable either and then judge them by your own Finnish standards.

I am sure it is a big job but that doesn't mean it is beyond every ones capabilities and hobbyist's should be encouraged to rear their own queens and strive for superior stock.

BB

 

[hedgerow pete]

i would normaly when i breed queens expect to kill around 15 out of 20 because they dont have the traites i want and thats way before i could even get to any of finmans ideas of queens.

how these people properly breed quuens and keep pure strains of ideals going is way beyond where i am now.

proffesional or proper queen breeding is one of many massive weaknesses i have, never mind i only have the rest of my life to get it right

 

[Scutellator]

- Varroa tolerancy I do not imagine that I could breed varroa tolerant bees. It is a huge job at least to professionals. Hobbiest seems to be lucky in their breeding. So they at least say. ODD!!!

So the pro's maybe don't know what exactly are doing. Breeding varroa tolerant/varroa resistant bees is not so difficult, trust me. It is more difficult to breed resistant and highly productive stock at the same time.

In Bulgaria many newbies get more honey than the "pro's" with 30+ years of experience. When gaining experience, you become more confident that you "know everything".

Acheiving varroa resistance is not so difficult, it's difficult do keep it.
More selection means narrower gene pool, with the known consequences.

 

[Finman]

Finman , you are to defeatist. You accept that you cannot do something and then assume no one else is capable
BB

I cannot say nothing to that. I just tel that you have nothing to teach me in genetics or in beekeeping. It is sure.

 

[Finman]

So the pro's maybe don't know what exactly are doing. Breeding varroa tolerant/varroa resistant bees is not so difficult, trust me. .

Trust you, why? Have you succeeded in that job? Or show me a research where they have succeeded to do that?

I have studied genetics in university. I have read all varroa tolerant beereeding projects in internet what I have found.
It is not "trusting issue".
I am able to read and understand researching. I am able too to consider are the writings honest facts.

- Could you tell me where they are? Some examples?
- If it is easy, why those strains have not delivered to other beekeepers.

- A lot of working has been done but it is not hobbiest work.

I am just very aware on those projects what they are doing.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Here is some clarification about disease tolerancy breeding

http://www.apimondia.org/2009/economy/World Varroa Challenge - John Kefuss.pdf

Other new information http://www.apimondia.org/2009/proceedings.htm

 

[Scutellator]

Trust you, why? Have you succeeded in that?

I have studied genetics in university. It is not "trusting issue".
I am able to read and understand researching. I am able too to consider are the writings honest facts.

- Could you tell me where they are? Some examples?
- If it is easy, why those strains have not delivered to other beekeepers.

- A lot of working has been done but it is not hobbiest work.

I am just very aware on those projects what they are doing.

.

If you come in Bulgaria I can show you more varroa resistant collonies than you could possibly count. Thousand of them are in the Nature (in hollow trees) and many - in the different apiaries.
It's very sobbering that many of them easily achieve varroa resistance by the Nature way - random matings, while the selection programmes with controled matings struggle to achieve that.

- If it is easy, why those strains have not delivered to other beekeepers.

Electricity is more efficient than fossil fuel, it is more cheaper too, then why we are not driving electric cars? Why they make cars that are rusting?

Weaver's claim that they have resistant bees more than 10 years.
"When a BeeWeaver Queen heads your colony you will be able to throw away those expensive mite treatments as well." check out their website.

Have you succeeded in that?

I'm not gonna answer to that, because you are not gonna believe me.

I have studied genetics in university.

So to you think you know everything?

"Put your finger here and see my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don't be faithless any longer. Believe!"

 

[blackbrood]

I just tel that you have nothing to teach me in genetics or in beekeeping. It is sure.

I am shocked Finman. As some one who believes in education (to University standard apparently) and rightly so, education is a great thing. You then say to people you have nothing to teach me. May be you should considering learning to listen. As individuals we never stop learning and quite often from unlikely sources but if you refuse to listen, you will never learn.

You refer to Scutellator and say trust him, why? I could say the same to you.

Trust you, Why?

BB

 

[Finman]

.
Hah hah boys . Exelent.

heh heh!

You have a great ego!

 

[blackbrood]

i would normaly when i breed queens expect to kill around 15 out of 20 because they dont have the traites i want and thats way before i could even get to any of finmans ideas of queens.

Cheers Pete,

I had been wondering if I did get some queens going what percentages would I be looking at destroying due to not being acceptable, that is a very high percentage to destroy.

BB

 

[Finman]

One year I had 2 splended hives. Boath foraged 70 kg in June. Boath brought about 200 kg per hive during that summer.

Another was Elqon origin and another pure Italian, I suppose. I reared tens of queens from them

80 % of daughters of Elgon mother showed chalkbrood.
20 % of Italian hive daughters showed chalkbrood.

When I later examined the Elgon hive, its drone brood has sign of disease, but worker brood area was splended.

First year I killed 50% on new mated queens, but the job was interesting.

At same summer I had two new queen from a professional beekeeper and this was a test summer. They had 9 box the boath hives, but they had really bad chalkbrood. I took 4 daughters from them and they all were badly sick.

.

 

[Hombre]

I think that most people rearing queens, rather than breeding queens will be doing so to satisfy their own requirements and as such will be using viable queens to make up nucs for increase, replacing queens in nasty colonies and similar.

I think that the rejection rate will be small and anything that has undesirable traits that bother them will get replaced in a future round of queen rearing.

What is the point of trying to supply an "A" class answer to a "B" class question.

Leave that to the breeders that are on a mission. How many queens do the commercial breeders destroy because the traits are wrong - It's a part of their livelyhood, so I would argue not many as they will be shipping out once they are proven, not keeping them around to give them marks out of ten in a full colony. They will of course be following the trend in those that they keep for their own use and that will surely guide things, but not many in their right mind will throw away wrong traits, they just won't propagate them in the future.

HP will get his lad to DELETE them if they don't turn out just right.

 

[Finman]

.

SUPERCEDURE QUEENS

my experiences from supercedure queens are bad. They are average queens or worse. I have allways regreted next summer that I let them to live.

Supercedure emerges when the queen has something troubles or it is sick. So, why to take descendantd from a mother, which has something wrong.

Supercedure queens have not selection of the beekeeper. They just happens to emerge, - why, who knows?

 

[blackbrood]

I think that most people rearing queens, rather than breeding queens will be doing so to satisfy their own requirements and as such will be using viable queens to make up nucs for increase, replacing queens in nasty colonies and similar.

What is the point of trying to supply an "A" class answer to a "B" class question.

I think for me Hombre, that is a perfect description

BB