Bibba

[TooBee...]

Could not agree more Finman.
I think it is the "little Englander" (Or Irelander) coming out in them.
It's pure native breeds or nothing.
.

... oh dear, what's that queasy feeling coming over me... ah, I know, it's because I'm nodding my head to your comment!

 

[Swarm]

Here we go again, it's laughably predictable if nothing else.

 

[foghornleghorn]

- because we're being told we should really be getting our bees DNA tested; the "Irish" AMM DNA has been found in the AMM's in France, so I could then turn around and say, 'I have had my bees tested, they're 90 something % pure according to the Irish AMM standard, but they're not Irish!' that would set the cat amongst the pigeons, or should that be hornet amongst the bees! Anyway I am only jesting, I doubt I would get that lucky.

You'd be saying that they'd be whatever percent amm. There is no irish amm standard.
Don't know who you're talking to but no one around here is being told to dna test their bees, it's only being done by a very small minority

 

[For want of a better word]

But guys are only worried about " pure black bees". Pure is value itself. Yeah, and breeding wing veins.

Other race keepers are not worried about native nor pure.
And why to take DNA when there is no that Queen any more after 2 years.
With that DNA cost you can buy a new good Queen or more.

That is because most of the bees on continental Europe... with the exception od a few Amm dominated areas... are merely a bunch of hybrids!!

Nos da

 

[Beefriendly]

Here we go again, it's laughably predictable if nothing else.

As predictable as yet another throwaway comment from yourself which contributes nothing of any substance to the thread.

 

[Finman]

.
Ireland has not been isolated from bee importing.

Same we can say about Cornish pure native tundra bees.

 

[Uncle Betty]

B+ and Cheers,

thanks for that info. it's very interesting, even if you both are not in exact agreement about the details.

A fellow beekeeper was told recently that he really should get his bees DNA tested to make sure that they are still pure Irish AMM (the original Queens that he used to 'establish' his apiary were from a 'pure' breeder), he has no intention of doing so, therefore I was curious about how one would go about it. I have started to come across beekeepers which are quoting with pride that their bees are 97 or 98% pure, it can rub one up the wrong way a little, especially as I'm just a beginner and I am subjected to an impromptu lecture on the subject. I'm almost tempted to try and buy a French (Brittany) AMM Queen and then get a DNA test done, wouldn't it be hilarious if I got a 97% or higher result back (Irish AMM DNA has been found in French AMM's), but it's late and my mind is flying of on silliness.

Yes, but on this issue, your track record of accurately reporting what you claim to have heard, is dismal.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=627657&postcount=104

Fact.

 

[B+.]

That is because most of the bees on continental Europe... with the exception od a few Amm dominated areas... are merely a bunch of hybrids!!

Nos da

What utter nonsense!
It might serve your purposes to spread malicious lies Icanhopit, but, some of us know better!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As predictable as yet another throwaway comment from yourself which contributes nothing of any substance to the thread.

Unlike toobee's constant trolling?

 

[Beefriendly]

Unlike toobee's constant trolling?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, but on this issue, your track record of accurately reporting what you claim to have heard, is dismal.
Fact.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Yes, but on this issue, your track record of accurately reporting what you claim to have heard, is dismal.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=627657&postcount=104

Fact.

Where were you hiding at Gormanston? Were you deliberately keeping out of my way?

 

[Swarm]

As predictable as yet another throwaway comment from yourself which contributes nothing of any substance to the thread.

Substance? The thread was taken off topic on the first page, the rest is just more of the usual nonsense and of no use to the OP.

 

[TooBee...]

Unlike toobee's constant trolling?

three fingers pointing back at you... you have clicked on my link below...?

 

[TooBee...]

Yes, but on this issue, your track record of accurately reporting what you claim to have heard, is dismal.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=627657&postcount=104

Fact.

Uncle Betty
please do not misunderstand 'what I have heard / been told' and what a leading 'Irish AMM website claims in writing', the two will naturally be different, with the latter being more accurate (assuming that what I was being told was about Galtee Bee Breeding Group - which it wasn't, as the people that talked to me about Irish AMM's mentioned a location in NI and have only mentioned Galtee this past month, so PLEASE understand I wasn't knowingly talking about or disparaging Galtee, ok ? - the Black Bee Breeding group was in NI, although now re-reading my Posts I realize why you thought I was, sorry, I was just repeating the terminology I had heard): Yes, that means that what I repeat, from what I have heard, will be different from well articluated publicly stated goals of those of like mind; with the assistance of members on this forum that know more (you appear to be one of the main ones) I can obtain greater accuracy of information on the goals of preservation of the Irish AMM. However I am still extremely perplexed in how one can try to preserve a distinct strain of bees while at the same time changing their traits, surely that is breeding a new bee strain - it's like saying the Western European Wolf is a unique wolf strain within the greater wolf family, lets set about trying to preserve it, and at the same time lets make it less aggressive, less roaming and able to work for us (a domesticated dog); privately I'm being told we need to preserve the Irish AMM, I understand that you can and have accurately quoted publicly stated goals which are different, I am sorry if I have misunderstood what I have been told, or been told inaccurate goals of Galtee without their name ever being mentioned. To the best of my knowledge I have never met or communicated with any of their members. Therefore, with respect, your accusation is unfair, because I think you thought I was referring to Galtee, which I wasn't.

Recently I heard of a south east group trying to breed a Varroa resistance Irish AMM, which is very admirable, but if they succeed (I hope they do) it will not be the same Irish Bee that has, I'm told, inhabited these islands for 1000's of years.

If you disagree with my last sentence, then please do help me in my perplexity on this issue! But do understand that I am not disparaging (knowingly) any one or any group. Other members have kindly sent me PM with links to various papers to help me increase my knowledge on these various subjects, please understand that this forum is an excellent place for us to increase our knowledge, ... debate is one way ... which I hope we're having without causing too much offense

 

[Uncle Betty]

Uncle Betty
Therefore, with respect, your accusation is unfair, because I think you thought I was referring to Galtee, which I wasn't.

Well, with respect, you think wrongly.

These are your words here -

the Black Bee breeding groups... here in Ireland

three things I've been told the Black Bee breeders are breeding for

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=627637&postcount=91



And that was after you'd been told by a very knowledgeable poster here that what you had been describing was not a breeding goal of any breeding programme.

Thus you made a very broad sweeping statement with zero reference to individual groups or regions, and I had no misconception about that. I referenced Galtee only because it is an easily found example of how insane your generalisation was.


Yet rather than doing minimal research, you preferred to weigh in with silly tittle-tattle.


You've been around long enough to know how inflammatory the topic is, but here you are back again now, with more tall tales of 'we're being told to get our bees DNA tested'.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=646223&postcount=40

Which started off as 'A fellow beekeeper was told recently...'

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=646202&postcount=34

And wouldn't it be 'hilarious' if blah blah blah

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=646202&postcount=34

But you doubt you'd be that lucky.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=646223&postcount=40


So I think you're one of those 'chuckers of little rocks', and good day to you.

 

[Bakerbee]

Chimps 99% dna vs human
Gorillas 98% dna vs human

Theres a huge amount of differences in 1 or 2%
So how does the 1 or 2 % difference in amm account for anything?

 

[Finman]

.
Guys want deep facts about Irish dark bee. When I read about that bee, it even forage on drizzly weather. IT does everything better than other bee races.

I think that some Irish beekeepers try to add propaganda with that DNA trick. Advertising of dark bees is so naive that who believes those stories.

If Irish dark bee is so good, it would be used all around the world.

Irish bee has been such thousands of years!!! = no breeding...

 

[SDM]

.

Recently I heard of a south east group trying to breed a Varroa resistance Irish AMM, which is very admirable, but if they succeed (I hope they do) it will not be the same Irish Bee that has, I'm told, inhabited these islands for 1000's of years.

The idea would be to retain what they consider to be beneficial adaptations to climate whilst improving other traits. If bred from within the same group of bees they would of course be the same bees.
One positive I suppose from the link uncle betty provided is that the Galtee group clearly recognise the overly aggressive and unproductive nature of Amm. The simple fact that it's taken them nearly 30 yrs to stop a handful of queens from swarming backs up my own personal opinion that a unanimous shift to Amm would be a backwards step of near 100 yrs .

 

[TooBee...]

Uncle Betty,

Ah, come on mate!

I've tried my best to reconcile with you, I've tried to explain why I had made the previous broad statements (in May) which are grossly inaccurate IF applied to official (respected & effective) breeding groups like Galtee, I should NOT have made a broad generalization, I made a very severe mistake, I took specific comments made to me by only a couple of individuals and generalized that throughout an entire movement, which was (lits be kind to a beek that that month had only just got a nuc) LAZY, or one could go as far as saying STUPID (but that's a wee bit harsh).

As for the DNA testing, some months back I was in a lecture in which the individual claimed to have had his bees DNA tested to 99% purity (a local guy which I had heard good things about, seemed decent and sincere), and this month I have indirectly met two people that also stated that they had had their bees DNA tested, and in this context we were being encouraged to do the same. I don't understand why you would take exception to me saying this? (The 'encouragement' had rubbed us up the wrong way, especially as two of us have Queens which are really nice and almost pure black).

Yes, I understand that when the subject of bee breeds / strains, etc. is brought up on this forum it can become inflammatory, but when previously in May, I made a false (because it was generalized) statement, B+ corrected me in a tactful way, you on the other hand are not trying to correct me, you are just lighting a fire.

Seriously mate, you're not winning the 'Native cause' any browny points here, and in fact you are turning people (sorry didn't mean to generalize, I mean me) off the entire native AMM preservation thing, so much so that I'm actually considering buying in two Buckfast Queens next year, if this is the cr*p I'm going to get from fellow enthusiasts. I was perplexed why for example JKB described you guys as bottom feeders (which I think is still too harsh), but if this is how you react to an attempt to reconcile and enter into a discussion on what is trying to be achieved, I can start to understand!