Bibba

[For want of a better word]

I bet it was instant at that

Probably black... without sugar
You are too bitter to sweeten!

Yeghes da

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Probably black... without sugar
You are too bitter to sweeten!

Yeghes da

Yes quite correct, it was black until some milk was added and I never use sugar.

 

[For want of a better word]

Yes quite correct, it was black until some milk was added and I never use sugar.

Thought you were a Vegan...
Potato pie, mash and chips.. seaweed salad... Pocheen.. and all that Irish Fare!

Mytten da

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I wanted that book as I have a feral colony of black bees.their new queen however, has yet to be seen. They are doing well, enjoying the ivy. No more interruptions from me until next spring

Of course you could do a study of their wings - although I understand the morphometry thing has now largely been dismissed as a result of science rather than wishful thinking.

I went to the BIBBA conference 2 years ago in the IoM and Randy Oliver - an engaging speaker (Of the Scientific Beekeeping website) really laid into them for some of their (perhaps you could say ... backwards looking) views of some aspects. I think you could say "well done" to RP who booked him.

 

[B+.]

Of course you could do a study of their wings - although I understand the morphometry thing has now largely been dismissed as a result of science rather than wishful thinking.

Let's put things in perspective here. Morphometry includes a whole range of tests that beekeepers can learn to do at home. They do not require a lab to test DNA samples and entomologists have used this technique for lots of different insects (not just honeybees) for a long time. It gives a good early indication of what the insect is.
IMHO, the problem is people want to dismiss the results of their predecessors and hype the latest technology.

 

[For want of a better word]

Let's put things in perspective here. Morphometry includes a whole range of tests that beekeepers can learn to do at home. They do not require a lab to test DNA samples and entomologists have used this technique for lots of different insects (not just honeybees) for a long time. It gives a good early indication of what the insect is.
IMHO, the problem is people want to dismiss the results of their predecessors and hype the latest technology.

My take on this is that when I take my car or motorcycle into a main dealer with a fault the technician plugs into the vehicles diagnostics and find out what the fault is.
Change from the "old days" when the greasy mechanic, would ... with a sigh and a sharp intake of breath say... looks like the turbo exchanger upper wooffle tappets need replacement... or it could be the lower double bracket has come loose!

Unless it is a hybrid of course!

Utilise all the tools in the box!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

My take on this is that when I take my car or motorcycle into a main dealer with a fault the technician plugs into the vehicles diagnostics and find out what the fault is.
Change from the "old days" when the greasy mechanic, would ... with a sigh and a sharp intake of breath say... looks like the turbo exchanger upper wooffle tappets need replacement... or it could be the lower double bracket has come loose!

Unless it is a hybrid of course!

Utilise all the tools in the box!

Nos da

Yes. However, for amateur beekeepers who, maybe, don't have access to the latest toys, morphometry is useful. It has it's place and, as I said, it gives a good, early indication of results. Even when you go into your hypothetical whizz-bang garage with all the tools, you'll need to have a fair idea why you're there (or, prepare to pay megabucks!).

I equate this with hygienic behaviour tests (freeze or pin-killed brood) for VSH. You need an early indication of what is worth testing or you have to test everything. Some tests are just too costly (in time, labour and money) to perform for every queen. You have to narrow the field somehow.

 

[TooBee...]

...You need an early indication of what is worth testing or you have to test everything. Some tests are just too costly (in time, labour and money) to perform for every queen....

This is just a question purely (at the moment) based on academic interest; but where or how does a beekeeper go about getting their Queen(s) DNA tested (I assume it's the tip of the wing that's tested), and how much money are we talking about for a single test.

To ask the question of how accurate the tests are could be opening up a can of worms, I know a of a German Shepperd that was tested and it came back as part Boxer? And watched a program once in which a ethnic european was told he was descended from north American Indians?

 

[B+.]

This is just a question purely (at the moment) based on academic interest; but where or how does a beekeeper go about getting their Queen(s) DNA tested (I assume it's the tip of the wing that's tested), and how much money are we talking about for a single test.

To ask the question of how accurate the tests are could be opening up a can of worms, I know a of a German Shepperd that was tested and it came back as part Boxer? And watched a program once in which a ethnic european was told he was descended from north American Indians?

Yes. I've seen programmes like that before too. That is why I am trying to defend simple techniques like morphology. How much information do most beekeepers REALLY need?
I don't know how the BIBBA group do it. I send 10*10cm sections of comb containing drone eggs to The Bee Institute at Hohen Neuendorf. Dr Strauss tests the drone egg DNA as part of the GeSeBi project.

 

[For want of a better word]

This is just a question purely (at the moment) based on academic interest; but where or how does a beekeeper go about getting their Queen(s) DNA tested (I assume it's the tip of the wing that's tested), and how much money are we talking about for a single test.

B4 project has been getting DNA analyses ( Nuclear & Mt) by Apigenix Labs in Switzerland, who I believe are used by the German beekeepers and breeders to access the level of introgression into their Carnolian type bees.
Cost is about £160 ... 16 pairs of drone brood antennae are taken for the test... in Eppendorf tubes with 100% Ethanol. ( NOT VODKA which is 45% at the very best!)
I have been told that queen wing tip DNA analyses is no longer being utilised by this lab.

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Apigenix Labs in Switzerland, who I believe are used by the German beekeepers and breeders to access the level of introgression into their Carnolian type bees.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information Icanhopit but the carnica breeders (of which there are many in Germany) in BeeBreed get free testing by Dr Anja Strauß at Hohen Neuendorf. Why would they spend all that money when they can get it done for free?

See below:

Sehr geehrter Herr ,
vielen Dank für Ihre zahlreichen Einsendungen von leistungsgeprüften Königinnen bzw. deren Drohneneiern für das Forschungsprojekt zur Etablierung der genomischen Selektion bei der Honigbiene (GeSeBi).
Um unsere benötigte Probenzahl für das GeSeBi-Projekt zu erreichen, benötigen wir weiterhin dringend Ihre Einsendungen von leistungsgeprüften Königinnen bis spätestens Ende September. Wenn Sie leistungsgeprüfte Königinnen oder gegebenenfalls noch im Gefrierschrank gelagerte Drohnenbrut zur Verfügung haben, möchten wir diese gerne in unsere Untersuchungen miteinbeziehen.
Wir freuen uns sehr über weitere Einsendungen und danken Ihnen herzlich für Ihre Teilnahme am Projekt.
Herzlichen Dank!
gez. Dr. Anja Strauß gez. Sophie Dithmer gez. Prof. Dr. Kaspar Bienefeld

 

[For want of a better word]

I don't know for sure... why would Carnolian breeders in Germany not use a free service?
Perhaps they want to keep the results they get close to their chests, and not use a free and openly published University driven testing facility?

IF we had such free facilities in the UK from one of the many Universities with the capability to sequence DNA for our Native honey bee I am sure many beekeepers who have dark bees would use it.

Probably a funding issue as most of the money for apiculture issues from the EU pot is spent elsewhere?

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

I don't know for sure... why would Carnolian breeders in Germany not use a free service?
Perhaps they want to keep the results they get close to their chests, and not use a free and openly published University driven testing facility?

No. That makes no sense. The results of the performance test are published anyway.
GeSeBi is an EU funded project

 

[TooBee...]

B+ and Cheers,

thanks for that info. it's very interesting, even if you both are not in exact agreement about the details.

A fellow beekeeper was told recently that he really should get his bees DNA tested to make sure that they are still pure Irish AMM (the original Queens that he used to 'establish' his apiary were from a 'pure' breeder), he has no intention of doing so, therefore I was curious about how one would go about it. I have started to come across beekeepers which are quoting with pride that their bees are 97 or 98% pure, it can rub one up the wrong way a little, especially as I'm just a beginner and I am subjected to an impromptu lecture on the subject. I'm almost tempted to try and buy a French (Brittany) AMM Queen and then get a DNA test done, wouldn't it be hilarious if I got a 97% or higher result back (Irish AMM DNA has been found in French AMM's), but it's late and my mind is flying of on silliness.

 

[Hivemaker.]

wouldn't it be hilarious if I got a 97% or higher result back

Why would it be hilarious?

 

[foghornleghorn]

B+ and Cheers,

thanks for that info. it's very interesting, even if you both are not in exact agreement about the details.

A fellow beekeeper was told recently that he really should get his bees DNA tested to make sure that they are still pure Irish AMM (the original Queens that he used to 'establish' his apiary were from a 'pure' breeder), he has no intention of doing so, therefore I was curious about how one would go about it. I have started to come across beekeepers which are quoting with pride that their bees are 97 or 98% pure, it can rub one up the wrong way a little, especially as I'm just a beginner and I am subjected to an impromptu lecture on the subject. I'm almost tempted to try and buy a French (Brittany) AMM Queen and then get a DNA test done, wouldn't it be hilarious if I got a 97% or higher result back (Irish AMM DNA has been found in French AMM's), but it's late and my mind is flying of on silliness.

The purity given would be as amm not irish amm

 

[Beefriendly]

And from what I've gleaned they may be "pure" but this doesn't necessarily equate with the characteristics most beekeepers want in their bees?

 

[Finman]

And from what I've gleaned they may be "pure" but this doesn't necessarily equate with the characteristics most beekeepers want in their bees?

But guys are only worried about " pure black bees". Pure is value itself. Yeah, and breeding wing veins.

Other race keepers are not worried about native nor pure.
And why to take DNA when there is no that Queen any more after 2 years.
With that DNA cost you can buy a new good Queen or more.

 

[Beefriendly]

But guys are only worried about " pure black bees". Pure is value itself. Yeah, and breeding wing veins.

Could not agree more Finman.
I think it is the "little Englander" (Or Irelander) coming out in them.
It's pure native breeds or nothing.
.

 

[TooBee...]

Why would it be hilarious?

- because we're being told we should really be getting our bees DNA tested; the "Irish" AMM DNA has been found in the AMM's in France, so I could then turn around and say, 'I have had my bees tested, they're 90 something % pure according to the Irish AMM standard, but they're not Irish!' that would set the cat amongst the pigeons, or should that be hornet amongst the bees! Anyway I am only jesting, I doubt I would get that lucky.