Best Hive Type... For You

[oliver90owner]

Hi Cheers - I'm still trying to understand a few terms. The 14 x 12 bodies - are they the "National Standard Deep"?

No, they are simply National Standard extra deeps. Also called Jumbo or 14 x 12.

National hives have three different sized boxes - shallow deep and extra deep. What could be simpler than that? Boxes can be used either as brood boxes or honey boxes (commonly called ‘supers’ when used for that purpose - but there are lots of non-thinking beeks that refer to any shallow as a ‘super’!)

Look at the frame designators - ‘S’ refers to ‘shallow’, ‘D’ refers to ‘deep’ and the 14 x 12 is the extra deep (but gets called all sorts of names!).

I would start either with 14 x 12 Nationals or Langstroth, but most likely the former.

Do take some claims of their bees needing multiple brood chambers with a pinch of salt - the queen has a finite maximum laying rate (and usually peaks early in the season). Each frame has a fixed number of cells and the brood cycle time is around 25 days (worker brood plus recycling the cell for its next cycle).

Even at 3000 eggs per day, that means that only about 75,000 brooding cells are required for a short period each year. If that lay rate were maintained and the workers survived for 7 weeks, one could calculate the terminal colony size quite easily. Do that and you will realise that some simply exaggerate!

 

[Briarfield]

No one has mentioned lug size. (Or I missed it).

I like the long lugs of nationals so use 14*12. It has enough brood space like a Langstroth but oOne of the problem of the deeper frames in the 14*12 is they seem more prone to instability at the base than the wider frames.

What about commercials?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[For want of a better word]

Apart from the quick routine swarm checks using double brood, about one minute per colony and a lot less disturbance, there is the advantage of being able to do an artificial swarm or reverse artificial swarm or demaree and the only extra bit of equipment needed is a crown/flight board, can even do it without that if need be.

As above,

Tried 14 x12 ( call them that not to confuse with anything else) Double brood Standard National is a lot more manageable.

Less prolific bee ( what ever that means?) seem happy in a Standard BS National brood box plus one half brood ( called a shallow and also used for supering above the colony for honey)

JUMBO* is I believe the big box that some use on the Langstroth's hive based around the dimensions of an American wine box... some seem to be stuck with it and claim to like it... the format that Flow hives are based on... but not JUMBO frames.

*Jumbo because it is big like an elephant?

 

[Poly Hive]

When I was running 60 odd colonies I found Langstroth to be the more convenient size both brood and supers. If it were not for the minor matter of selling nucs I would be Lang through and through but the market is for National, unfortunately.

PH

 

[JazzJPH]

Thanks guys for all the responses. Also, thanks for the clarifications on the sizes of National boxes/frames.

I'm thinking of getting an Abelo Poly hive - either National or Lang. Hopefully more members will come in and add their views on the three questions - the more the merrier guys!!

Thanks again, this is helping me decide which way I'm going to go, as I have read from various threads on here that juggling multiple hive types is a bit of a 'mare.

 

[For want of a better word]

No one has mentioned lug size. (Or I missed it).

I like the long lugs of nationals so use 14*12. It has enough brood space like a Langstroth but oOne of the problem of the deeper frames in the 14*12 is they seem more prone to instability at the base than the wider frames.

What about commercials?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Then there are Smiths and OSB.........

 

[ANMAW]

No one has mentioned lug size. (Or I missed it).

I like the long lugs of nationals so use 14*12. It has enough brood space like a Langstroth but oOne of the problem of the deeper frames in the 14*12 is they seem more prone to instability at the base than the wider frames.

What about commercials?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

More stable because of the more rectangular (‘16x10’) frame shape but shorter lugs so they can fit. So you take your pick of what you prefer. The box size is basically the same as the National so depending on your setup should be compatible with National kit (my setup is mostly maisemore poly so it’s all compatible). Depends how invested you are and if you want the faff of another frame size/box type to have available...

 

[Antipodes]

What I do here (like many others in Tasmania) is use all "ideal" sized boxes, both for the brood and for supers. Mine are 8 frame Langstroth size in both width and length (although they can be 10 frame wide). Depth is 146mm as opposed to the usual Langstroth depth of 241.

 

[JWF]

No one has mentioned lug size. (Or I missed it).

I like the long lugs of nationals so use 14*12. It has enough brood space like a Langstroth but oOne of the problem of the deeper frames in the 14*12 is they seem more prone to instability at the base than the wider frames.

What about commercials?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I started on standard National but moved over to 14*12 last year. I prefer the big lugs on nationals versus the smaller lugs on commercials, and the extra space in the 14*12 seems an improvement over standard nats.

I know others disagree, and I've seen 14*12 referred to as an abomination on here

 

[colinc]

and I've seen 14*12 referred to as an abomination on here

The same is said of brood and a half, and double brood so regardless someone will find fault in every option. You can’t decide a box size until you know the fecundity and you wont know that until the bees are in a box. Fun Hobby.

Just prepare to be flexible

 

[JazzJPH]

Thank you all the guys who have answered the questions so far, it's very helpful.

It seems that if it was all to start from scratch, National likely wouldn't be the standard it is now. Although I see the benefits of going standard, I'm swaying toward Langstroth.

If any other forumites would like to weigh in with their answers to the three questions I would welcome it and greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again everyone for getting involved

 

[Angry_Mob]

Before I bought my first hive I considered langstroth, I decided against it because of the availability of equipment and absolutely no one in my association uses it (although very few use poly). For simple things such as maybe borrowing a frame of brood (if you had one hive say) or you also ever want to sell a hive or nuc in the future you severely limit your market.

In the end I went for two swienty national hives, only mistake was buying swienty as they turned out to be poor quality. I've since moved onto a mixture of Abelo 14x12 for my buckfast colonies and national for my AMM. The nucs are easy as they use an eke adapter so you can easily change between them.

 

[Maddog87]

Which is popular in France?

Hello everyone. I have yet to get any bees, we are only recently moved in and there is a lot of prep to do. I’m taking this time to learn what are my best options for hives and equipment. I’d appreciate advice and explanations. Thanks.

 

[Murox]

Bienvenue sur le forum. Discutez avec des apiculteurs locaux. "Langstroth" est un format courant; il y a beaucoup de choix. Bonne chance.

 

[madasafish]

When I made my choice of hive, I had no intention of swopping frames/equipment with anyone else, ignored my Association (I did not then and still don't know most members) and chose based solely on my own criteria:

Minimal lifting of brood boxes - so B1.5 or B2 were out and the brood box had to take prolific bees.. Which ruled out all nationals except 14 x12.
Easy and cheap to make: which ruled out all nationals .
Enough standard equipment around. (By then BE were selling)..

So I chose Lang jumbos.. And made my own. Easy peasy for a bodger like me.

Never regretted it.

 

[JazzJPH]

Are nationals really that much more difficult than Langs to make?

 

[Vortex]

1)National>14x12>Langstroth
2)poly langstroth (Honeypaw/Lyson)
3)poly langstroth (Honeypaw/Lyson)

I also ignored my Association when deciding although my choice was very much influenced by the bee keeper who got me into bee keeping who ran Langstroths. Have I every regretted my choice not in the least. The only difference between then and now were I to start over would be I'd buy poly from the outset - saves the hassle of slowly having to switch over.

 

[Beefriendly]

So I chose Lang jumbos.. And made my own. Easy peasy for a bodger like me.

Never regretted it.

Not a bad choice. I think if I had my time again I would go for Dadants.
However I find Nationals to be extraordinarily flexible in what you can do with them. Double/Triple brood.
Swarm control aka Demaree/Snelgrove....you already have 2 boxes on site. Concentrate a work force for a flow...knock 'em back to 1 brood and add extra supers. Not such a prolific queen...back to 1 box.
A very flexible hive is the National.

 

[Helen]

Modified Dartingtons. I don't move the hives around, so no problem re size. Can take 25+ 14x12 frames if needed, but can be stopped down to only those required.

Use normal national supers - not the 1/2s of the original design.

No bending down - everything at waist height. No back aches.

Underfloor entrances, now with removable (Millet) tunnel entrances.

I've insulated one with 50mm+ celotex cladding the body, with 80mm celotex roofs that fully encompass a single super. Also included a 30mm celotex baseboard that can seal up the base (from underneath) for cold temps, or ventilate for warmer temps. 80mm celotex divider boards inside, so can stop-down the space for winter, as required.

And all hand-made apart from the Supers which are cedar. Easy.