Being overwhelmed by my bees / feeling despondent - advice please

[ksjs]

Did my last inspection on Saturday just gone and ended it feeling very down; the bees seem overflowing, there's maybe a carpet of bees on both sides of 10 of the BB's 11 frames, it feels virtually impossible (despite my very best efforts at being gentle and careful) not to kill more bees than I am comfortable with when sliding frames back together (due to brace comb) and when putting on super, crown board and roof. There are just so many bees, I guess things aren't being helped by fact that some / many aren't out foraging when they should be due to weather.

I can hardly see the comb as a) it's covered in bees and b) my veil / mesh is covered with bees. Yes, I can shake bees of combs but this just makes them mad. I've had a super on for ages and they're hardly touching it (no attempt to draw out foundation - I guess due to cool temps), they have however started drawing out 2 fresh frames I put in the BB to give the queen more space (I removed 2 frames of stores to allow for this). I removed QE to help entice them to draw super but to no avail.

They're building play cups (4 from what I could see), there's not much laying space left, they show no intention of using the super, they can't surely just go on filling up the BB more and more! Can you have too many bees in a hive? They superseded last autumn and I believe it was successful as I haven't seen the previous (marked) queen during several inspections. No big deal but I'd like to be able to identify her, partly because it's interesting and partly because it will help if splitting them (though I know you can do this without knowing where the queen is).

I feel like I've done everything I can and it's not enough, that I'm doing something wrong. Perhaps these are just normal thoughts / experiences for a beginner beekeeper (this is my first full year with the bees)? Perhaps what I'm seeing is simply a result of the continued spell of cold / poor weather. Inspecting them is starting to feel stressful. The only solution I can come up with is to split them, hopefully taking advantage of the number of bees. I had planned to do this anyway this year but I assumed it was better to do this when they were actually going to swarm. Is that belief wrong? Is this (splitting them) a sensible move, will it decrease swarming instinct?

Or should I just let them 'get on with it' and stop worrying? Any suggestions, thoughts on what I can / should do, if anything, much appreciated.

I have 1 national hive and live in North Wales by the way.

 

[VEG]

they wont use the foundation in the super until they need it. Bees covering the frames is good it keeps the brood warm. You need to relax a bit. Smoke the bees out of the way when putting boxes back on or use a water mist spray if the smoke winds them up.

 

[Joseph]

Or should I just let them 'get on with it' and stop worrying?

Yeah I think you should. You have no problem, you are doing just fine. There is nothing you can do about the weather keeping the bees at home with nothing to store in the supers just yet.

Although you can A/S them and handling them would be more pleasurable, I would desist.

 

[Swarm]

Sounds like you are experiencing the overwhelming feeling you get when you first see a full strength colony. It can be daunting but don't let it get you down. The stress will always be present to some degree considering the circumstances and all the while trying to be careful.
If you have or can get one, I'd put a brood box under the existing one. I wouldn't split unless there are queen cells.

 

[Excession]

I think you should feel a little proud, your obvious care and attention has helped grow your colony to a good size.

Try not to panic and enjoy them? Maybe get some help from your local association for ideas on handling your hive, it would help with confidence if nothing else.

 

[justme]

more experienced beeks please comment on this before ksjs possibly acts on it.

Lots of bees, yes, cant see comb for bees, without knowing how much brood you have difficult to know but maybe add a brood box? (super as brood I mean). As I've asked please correct me if I'm wrong:.)

 

[betterbee]

maybe a mentor from your local association would accompany you on your next inspection just to reassure you,all you lack is a bit of self confidence to enjoy your beekeeping

 

[REDWOOD]

You could try putting a super under the brood box to give then more room but don't worry it is the cold weather stopping them using the super, as I write this it is hail stoning outside. A good tip to clear bees away from play cups to see if there is anything inside is to gently blow on the bees, they soon move

 

[kighill]

A tip to avoid squashing bees.

Remove one or two frames at the start of your inspection (check each when you remove them) this will result in leaving you a gap to move the next frame after examining.

Check your next frame and again put it gently next to the last examined frame, continue until you have checked all the frames.

When you push/slide the frames back into the original position instead of doing so one at a time gently shove 4/5. Pushing them back in this way prevents squashing of bees which occurs when replacing one at a time. Finally put back the two frames you removed originally.

It can also be easier to move frames if you put a little petroleum jelly on the runners.

 

[Swarm]

A good tip to clear bees away from play cups to see if there is anything inside is to gently blow on the bees, they soon move

This does work if the bees are mild natured, with a more moody colony you are just as likely to get a faceful of angry bees (like I did last weekend ) Back of fingers works as well and making sure that the frame is mostly still in the hive if it needs shaking to help keep them down.

 

[kevrhcfag]

We have just started and I was killing bees left right and centre inbetween frames, crown board and everything else, feeding. That was when we had a lot of empty frames aswell.

Being new our inspections probably take a lot longer than more experienced people, but as the hives have grown, I have reduced my kill rate massively, even with a lot more easy targets.

We simply have a spare brood box, crack all the frames so they're loose first. Take the dummy board out and put in spare box, then start with end frame check queen is not on it and move to spare box, repeat for next frame. Then inspect the next frame and put in back into the box at the end, same with next frame and carefully put it against previous one all the way up, so only doing one frame at a time. Repeat this, then move all the frames back to original position as one (so you are pushing 8 or 9 frames together), replace other 2 frames and dummy board. This works very well for us and we don't seem to catch many between frames.

Is you BB just standard deep, if so why not add another, move a frame up and encourage the bees to move up, or go brood and a half, sounds as if they will probably swarm if so short of room anyway. If you split them are you going to get much out of them this year.

It is certainly very daunting, we are lucky we have someone to ask (and do constantly), but its also great and fascinating. I am constantly worrying about them, but we can only do our best and sometimes we are going to make big mistakes, thats exactly what experience is.

 

[BCBEE]

Hi Ksjs.
You and me are in the same boat my freind. I posted last week saying that i was fed up and packing it in. My hive swarmed and that put the nail in. Hwever phoning the local bee collector a really nice bloke ame round to collect my swarm and gave me some good advice. He was so calm and collected handling my bees it made me realise that it wasnt as bad as i thought and he convinced me to stick at it. He even said i could have the swarm back later. Anyway i did an inspecion this weekend in case there were any queen cups that would cause a cast. As usual i was covered in bees despite being really calm, quiet and slow and it dawned on me that despite havinga swarm the hive was still really full. I now realise that they were probally just overcrowded and that was making them angry. I have now ordered another brood box and frames so i canngive them more room.

Meeting the other beekeper who has 35 hives made me realise the importance of talking to other beekeepers and not trying to do it all on our own.

We seem to be doing something right mate as they survived the winter and are nice and proific.
So hang in there and try and get a mentor or join a club so you can get some good advice.

Cheers and good luck
Phill

 

[REDWOOD]

A tip to avoid squashing bees.

Remove one or two frames at the start of your inspection (check each when you remove them) this will result in leaving you a gap to move the next frame after examining.

Check your next frame and again put it gently next to the last examined frame, continue until you have checked all the frames.

When you push/slide the frames back into the original position instead of doing so one at a time gently shove 4/5. Pushing them back in this way prevents squashing of bees which occurs when replacing one at a time. Finally put back the two frames you removed originally.

It can also be easier to move frames if you put a little petroleum jelly on the runners.

 

[MandF]

re: killing/trapping bees when replacing/moving frames - you need to give any in the way (under frame lugs when putting back, or between frame lugs when sliding together) a gentle nudge with the frame to let them know to get out of the way.

So push the frames together, and if there are bees in the gap keep pushing until you nudge the bees, then pull back slightly (to let them move) and quickly squeeze together again (to prevent others taking their place). I find that doing this I can close the frames after a couple of shuffles even in full hives.

When you are replacing frames it is a bit more tricky as you cannot see if any get underneath, so I lower the frame until its about 5mm above the runner, lift up and then place it down.

As a matter of course you should remove brace comb off the top of any frames because then you can;

When replacing brood/super boxes place them down onto the box below at an angle - you then only have 2 small areas of box on each side in contact so unlikely to crush any bees. Then lift the box up just enough so you can slowly rotate it into the correct position, you will push bees out of the way as you rotate, and if any werent quick enough to dive back inside, you will just be left with a few bees on the outside who will then go back in via the entrance.

There is a knack to doing the above quickly, and you will always have a few casualties, but doing it this way will help minimise that horrible crunching sound as much as poss!

 

[drex]

Yes it can be overwhelming when you first start and are faced with a hive full of bees, but you are doing OK.

Sometimes however careful you are the little devils seem intent on getting squashed. Take out as many frames as you need to give you a comfortable space in which to lower frames, and put the removed frames in a nuc or spare box

As above I suggest you contact local association and see if someone will come and look at them with you. It worked for BCbee.

If you look at them in the middle of a nice warm day ( when was the last one? - I know), then a lot will be out foraging and there will be fewer in the hive. Some bees are reluctant to go through a QE so you have done right by removing it. How many frames are being used in the BB now? How many frames of brood? possibly give more room for brooding by adding another brood box or super under your existing BB.

If they are really frantic, you could try moving the whole hive several yards away to a new location before they start flying for the day. Put a new box on the old site and most of them will go back to that box, leaving fewer in the hive you want to look through. Once done move them back.

How to they respond to smoke - does it make them angrier? some respond better to a fine water mist from sprayer. You could always try a cover cloth when looking at them, that will keep more of them in the hive rather than in your face.

Do not give up. It is a steep learning curve but so enjoyable when you can relax.

 

[nelletap]

I know I have had the same sort of feelings. When you first get bees then they are expanding so there is room but at some stage various negative circumstances conspire. As well as seeing whether beekeepers can inspect with you you might want to see if you can go to others again - ie be part of their inspections.
I have also found it helpful to have a spare nuc box so I can place frames from the brood in there during inspections - spread the mass of bees a little. I bought the Paul Metcalf video when I started and I find it useful to watch sections again. He is so calm and the swirl of bees reminds you of the reality of an inspection. I have purchased his updated video. he places one of the first frames flat over the brood body and that also leaves extra room to manipulate the remaining frames. I read on here that you can also move your hive a few feet when you inspect so that returning bees don't add to the number. I think this is one of those hurdles that a fellow beekeeper can help you get over. I think I might have given up had I not realised how much money I had committed.

Good luck.

 

[chrismcd]

Try some stealth as well

Hi Ksjs,

I hope that all the support has been of some help - you are not alone

Can I add some other points that may be of use.

Big hives are "defensive" - and may well try and take over an area.

Small numbers of bees, such as in nucs, tend to stay on the comb and watch you.

But, as they get bigger colonies start to throw their weight about and "meet and greet"! Once a hive has reached a certain size, it would appear that one if its defence strategies is to "look big and threatening" - you need to distract them and avoid triggering that particular response.

And yes, I know it is a lot easier said than done. However, a certain amount of low animal cunning can be helpful.

1) Approach from down-sun and downwind if you can - creep up on them!

2) Give them a whiff of smoke as a distraction - it is supposed to be a forest fire some miles away, not a blowtorch! You are trying to distract them rather than start a panic.

3) Move slowly and avoid all jarring shocks (I bought a crowbar like hive tool to prise open hives as smoothly as possible)

4) Keep low, avoid getting your shadow over the hive and try not to breath on the bees.

5) Make sure you have no alarm pheromone on your gloves and kit left over from a previous visit.

Bees have evolved an effective defence behaviour against mammalian honey thieves. Your are supposed to be distracting them with the possibility of a distant forest fire and not imitating a black bear!

And yes, I looked a real prat sneaking up on my biggest hive. They were part Italian and always produced this great whirling column of bees at the slightest disturbance. But, I found that if I kept really low, very few of them collided with me and I could get my inspection done before the level of alarm pheromone made the whole thing a bit too exciting.

Really expert beekeepers make it look so easy and untroubled - I reckon I am just beginning to get an inkling of how they do it!

 

[Poly Hive]

You talk about the frames being thick with bees, but you do not say how many frames of brood you have?

If you are up to 8-9 then you might want to consider adding a 2nd brood box below your present one.

The bees will draw out your super when they get some income and that in turn depends on some decent weather.

Hang in there.

PH

 

[rae]

Squashing bees on frames - as others have said, take one of the edge frames out and set it to one side. You can get a natty frame hanger, but it is a bit of a gadget. Just don't put it down next to your feet, or you will have 1000 bees trying to get into your boots.

De-brace as you go. If there is brace between the combs, check your spacing - are the separators close packed or if hoffmans, the frames touching? If they have really mullered a comb, take it out - it will cause problems.

Putting supers back without squashing bees is hard, and when they are heavy, requires strength. Put them on "skew", and then rotate into place - the bees have a chance to move away from the advancing wall, rather than get squashed.

What sort of temperament are they? Hordes of bees on the veil does not sound ideal. You can open up a good hive, and there will be a fair number of bees in the air, but they won't be all over you. Next worst is when they are all over you, and the worst of the lot is the sort of hive that you open it...and the whole lot come out and try and sting you. We have one of those....

 

[Martin G]

It can be quite overwhelming when you open your hive and a ‘sea’ of bees emerge, once you realise this is a good thing it helps. I take an empty brood box when inspecting, it gives you somewhere to put a couple of frames to give you some working space.

A handy tip I was given is to stand at the back or side of the hive, out of the flight-path of the bees.

We have plenty of associations in our part of the world, are you a member? Ask an old hand to come along to your next inspection just to give you some confidence and once you know you’re not doing anything wrong your confidence will grow.

I inspected over the weekend and thought one colony was using me as a landing post, I honestly didn’t think there were so many bees in one hive, but a little light smoke kept them calm, and once I’d finished with no stings I felt pretty good, especially as the same colony had stung me several times the week before!

There is a yahoo forum for Gwynedd: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/gwyneddbeekeeping/ loads of local contacts. If you are anywhere near me I’d be happy to join you at an inspection, PM me with details.

As the posters say ‘Keep calm and carry on’ and have confidence in the protective power of your bee suite!

Martin