Being overwhelmed by my bees / feeling despondent - advice please

[Swarm]

But why?

Splitting them before hand just causes unnecessary stress. Allowing the bees to decide means queens that were intended for that role and not emergency queens which are sometimes considered inferior.

 

[VEG]

 

[ksjs]

Splitting them before hand just causes unnecessary stress. Allowing the bees to decide means queens that were intended for that role and not emergency queens which are sometimes considered inferior.

Splitting was suggested as a viable and very practical means of swarm control during my course. If it's such a poor option why would this be the case?

Is the 'inferior queen' thing not a bit of a myth?

Also, what happens if you need / want to make increase and they don't swarm? This is my queen's first year, I understand only 25% or so of queens swarm in their first year. Is it not better for me to split now rather than later when they might have decided they won't be swarming?

 

[Poly Hive]

There is splitting and splitting... as you would expect.

Emergency cells are often based on 3 day old larvae and so yes will make inferior queens.

Then there is splitting and introducing new queens. Different ball game but still splitting. Or splitting and giving ripe cells. Plus other scenarios but you get the drift, it is controlled.

PH

 

[ksjs]

First of all if you are not using smoke then sorry but... you are getting issues that are totally avoidable. Self inflicted injuries comes to mind.

Yes your 2nd brood goes under and they will move into in and lay up even if they are not utilizing the super for honey. Trust me on this.

No idea why you are getting the brace comb? Check your spacings.

Thanks for this. No physical injuries, just mental ones but smoke will be in force on next inspection...

OK, 2nd BB, some questions:
Why should they use this without drawn foundation when they won't use super without drawn foundation?
Should it be a full national BB or will a super suffice?
Should I remove super at same time or leave this on and replace QE?
Is physical process obvious i.e. lift original BB and place somewhere nearby off ground, put new BB in place and then replace original on top?

As for spacings, can you go wrong with hoffman self-spacing, I thought you couldn't? When I say brace comb I just mean occasional small bridges between adjoining frames. No big deal but enough to cause hassle when putting frames back together.

 

[chrismcd]

Try just a whiff of smoke

Splitting was suggested as a viable and very practical means of swarm control during my course. If it's such a poor option why would this be the case?

I suspect the main question here is honey production. If you split a hive it takes a while for worker numbers to build back up and overall honey production suffers.

The skill is in building up a colonies workers so that they collect huge amounts of honey and do not swarm - theory is great, practice is something else!

By all means split if you want to, just make sure that there are very young larvae or eggs in the bit without the queen as has been mentioned elsewhere. Most of us keep a spare nuc handy and do an artificial swarm when we see the queen cells - that way we know the bees are in the mood and we do not have all the hassle of chasing a swarm.

IMHO even a full National brood does not produce a really threatening cloud of bees (double brood is something else!).

Getting back to an earlier comment. You really should be using smoke unless you have some incredibly docile bees or are some sort of beemaster.

Just the merest whiff is enough to mask your own scent and make them start fretting about fires. Can I suggest that you waft some smoke past the entrance, leave for a few minutes and only then start to work through the hive.

Hopefully you will be amazed by the difference in your bees behaviour.

 

[REDWOOD]

Thanks for this. No physical injuries, just mental ones but smoke will be in force on next inspection...

OK, 2nd BB, some questions:
Why should they use this without drawn foundation when they won't use super without drawn foundation?
Should it be a full national BB or will a super suffice?
Should I remove super at same time or leave this on and replace QE?
Is physical process obvious i.e. lift original BB and place somewhere nearby off ground, put new BB in place and then replace original on top?

As for spacings, can you go wrong with hoffman self-spacing, I thought you couldn't? When I say brace comb I just mean occasional small bridges between adjoining frames. No big deal but enough to cause hassle when putting frames back together.

If you put a second BB below the BB then the heat is at the top (as it is now ) and they will start working the box below.
A super will be OK but due to the size can get full quickly
Remove the BB and place it on up turned lid, place new BB on floor, replace original BB on top.
Remove super for now and feed if only using foundation
Hoffman's frames are exact spacing and bees do make bridges between them, some say it is to control heat and air flow as sometimes they make holes in foundation/comb

 

[ksjs]

Emergency cells are often based on 3 day old larvae and so yes will make inferior queens.

In the rather superb Welsh Assembly booklet (There Are Queen Cells In My Hive - What Should I do?) it says:

"Despite, from the outside, looking smaller than swarm cells, emergency cells normally produce perfectly good queens. The idea that emergency queen cells produce an inferior queen is probably based on last ditch attempts to re-queen colonies that have been queen-less for some time by giving them a frame with eggs or young larvae on it. Such colonies do not have enough nurse bees of the right age to produce a fully developed queen."

On a side note I found 4 of these booklets, the 3 others are about Comb Management, Making Increase and Feeding. They are some of the best things I have read on their subject areas (well-written, very clearly explained and practical). I tried to attach the queen cells one but it isn't allowed. I can email anyone a copy if anyone's interested (they are for beginners though).

 

[ksjs]

I suspect the main question here is honey production. If you split a hive it takes a while for worker numbers to build back up and overall honey production suffers.

Most of us keep a spare nuc handy and do an artificial swarm when we see the queen cells - that way we know the bees are in the mood and we do not have all the hassle of chasing a swarm.

Can I suggest that you waft some smoke past the entrance, leave for a few minutes and only then start to work through the hive.

Hopefully you will be amazed by the difference in your bees behaviour.

I'm thinking this winter / next year - I'd much rather forego honey this year and have more security in the form of 2 hives this winter / next year.

Are you suggesting that the bees won't or are less likely to 'take' to their new hive if they aren't in the swarming mood? Do they not just think 'Oh no, we're queenless and there's a brand new egg just there, let's make a queen!' and get on with it?

If I am going to proceed with an early A/S are there any steps I can take to try and maximise chances of success? Only ones I'm aware of are ensuring as many fresh eggs as possible and sufficient numbers of bees.

Definitely going to use smoke next time, am intrigued to see what difference there is.

 

[ksjs]

If you put a second BB below the BB then the heat is at the top (as it is now ) and they will start working the box below.

Remove super for now and feed if only using foundation

Thanks for this. Don't understand your comment about heat, surely there's more heat in the currently untouched super as it's on top?

Why not leave super on - is this a heating issue?

Nobody's explained why undrawn foundation in the BB is more likely to get drawn than undrawn foundation in a super?

 

[enrico]

She needs to lay eggs that is why they will draw the brood box out first.
E

 

[Bucks_Boy]

You can get a natty frame hanger, but it is a bit of a gadget. Just don't put it down next to your feet, or you will have 1000 bees trying to get into your boots.

....

Different people, different methods -- I wouldnt be without mine.

I wonder, has the inspection cloth gone out of favour as a method of inspecting in less than favourable conditions ?

I forgot mine yesterday and when a clap of thunder went off almost above me ( and the Sun was out !!), the scene was like the East Coast marshes when every wader in view takes to the air at the same time.....

 

[Ziggymole]

Nobody's explained why undrawn foundation in the BB is more likely to get drawn than undrawn foundation in a super?

I think this is because bees naturally work downwards??

 

[susbees]

Different people, different methods -- I wouldnt be without mine.

I wonder, has the inspection cloth gone out of favour as a method of inspecting in less than favourable conditions .

Nope. Not here. Two clean non fluffy teatowels for big grumpy hives. Preferable to excess smoke...
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[BCBEE]

Different people, different methods -- I wouldnt be without mine.

I wonder, has the inspection cloth gone out of favour as a method of inspecting in less than favourable conditions ?
QUOTE]

I was looking at the one in the Thorne catalogue and thought thats a good idea but not at £30. So i am off to the Mill shop to get a bit of heavy canvas as I can knock the metal frame up myself at work.

Phill

 

[fiftyjon]

Different people, different methods -- I wouldnt be without mine.

I wonder, has the inspection cloth gone out of favour as a method of inspecting in less than favourable conditions ?
QUOTE]

I was looking at the one in the Thorne catalogue and thought thats a good idea but not at £30. So i am off to the Mill shop to get a bit of heavy canvas as I can knock the metal frame up myself at work.

Phill

Make sure the frame is removable so that the cloth can be washed.

 

[chrismcd]

By all means do an AS

Are you suggesting that the bees won't or are less likely to 'take' to their new hive if they aren't in the swarming mood? Do they not just think 'Oh no, we're queenless and there's a brand new egg just there, let's make a queen!' and get on with it?

If I am going to proceed with an early A/S are there any steps I can take to try and maximise chances of success? Only ones I'm aware of are ensuring as many fresh eggs as possible and sufficient numbers of bees.

Definitely going to use smoke next time, am intrigued to see what difference there is.

Hi Ksjs.

I tend to wait till I get Queen Cells, because I have run short of kit and am happy to wait for the bees to make the first move. But, if you like your queen, there is no reason why you shouldn't use her for an AS when the timing suits you.

It sounds like you are doing most things right and in my opinion three hives is a good minimum to go into the winter with.

All I would suggest is that you do the AS on a warm day when most of the foragers are out foraging and this season be prepared to feed the hive with the nurse bees.

Following on from other comments, I am a fan of smoke from well rotted wood and inspection cloths are yet another cunning wheeze to minimise that "cloud of bees" that you seem afflicted with.

 

[ksjs]

She needs to lay eggs that is why they will draw the brood box out first.
E

Fair enough but I've had a super on with no QE in place i.e. just as easy to use and they're not doing anything with that. Putting this beneath the BB changes, as far as I can tell, nothing. Surely it is the cool weather that's causing the problem here?

Still, enough people have suggested it and any port in a storm so I will have a go. They have managed to draw the 2 frames of fresh foundation I put in the BB so maybe by simply being below rather than above that will make all the difference. Will report back...

 

[oliver90owner]

simply being below rather than above that will make all the difference. Will report back...

It may not make much difference, but every little helps. Think....

No space above which is being heated.

Less surface area of walls above, to lose that brood heat to the surroundings

The box below will not need heating apart from where they might start drawing comb ie the top-most part only.

Circulating air currents lose heat to the hive walls and coverboard more quickly than still air.

They can limit/control the air flow in the hive if they can fill all the gaps in between combs.

Heat always rises (by convection) so the region just under the crownboard will be warmest, other than inside the brood nest.

Bees next to the crownboard can prevent the air from spreading sideways quickly. The box underneath will raise them further from the outside air and act as a baffle for any draughts.

It all adds up and those small differences are all in the right direction.

RAB

 

[tonybloke]

Surely it is the cool weather that's causing the problem here?

who you calling Shirley?