Beginner cannot decide TBH or Warre, which is better please?

[Beero]

So i have been really keen to start a hive and as a woodworker have made a Warre hive for a friend but am kind of torn between a Warre and a TBH as i have a bad back, which would be the best way forward? (no pun intended there either)

 

[pargyle]

So i have been really keen to start a hive and as a woodworker have made a Warre hive for a friend but am kind of torn between a Warre and a TBH as i have a bad back, which would be the best way forward? (no pun intended there either)

A long deep hive with frames is the best middle option to either of them. As long as you don't need to move them (they can be very heavy) they are a joy to use. Even with a bad back you can manage them ..

Mine has been seen many times on here but it might give your some idea of what is possible:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157634865981506

 

[Ian123]

For me as a beginner stick with standard hives they are considerably cheaper and can be operated within greener principles if that’s what floats your boat. Many hive designs are sold/promoted as the cure to all beekeeping ills, that’s carp they are a beetainer and that’s about it. How you care for them is a different matter. As long as you can inspect your bees that’s literally the only requirement on the most basic level. With the basics learnt you can carry any principles forward in a much better informed manner. Ian

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Look up Michael Bush - "The Practical Beekeeper" and the section on using boxes of all the same size, with less frames in each box. It makes for less heavy lifting and all the frames can be the same; brood and super.

 

[madasafish]

I started with a TBH. Unless you are lucky, no-one knows anything about managing them and you are on your own. ( I was). Forget more than 10kgs honey in even a good year and none in a bad one.

A warre requires lifting..

A long hive using national frames is far better for a beginner with a sore back. You can buy a nuc with frames that will fit in, easy to inspect no heavy lifting.
(But the box is heavy so site it carefully as moving it when filled is near impossible without two strong people).

And yes I have occasional back problems (now largely sorted through intensive core work over several years..)

 

[drex]

I agree with Pargyle. A long deep hive because there is minimal lifting once it is in place ( you mention a bad back). And because it also takes frames, which make life easier, especially for a beginner. I acquired skills on National hives before getting a TBH and a Warre, which are a bit more difficult to handle, since you only have top bars and bees will stick comb to the side of the box. . No lifting with a TBH either

 

[Murox]

So i have been really keen to start a hive and as a woodworker have made a Warre hive for a friend but am kind of torn between a Warre and a TBH as i have a bad back, which would be the best way forward? (no pun intended there either)

I am also with Pargyle on this. The only draw back is if you need to move it periodically - its heavy.

The flickr pics speak a thousand words.

 

[Ian123]

Long hives have there own issues with any half prolific bee they are swarm machines and I’ve made my first 1 back in the 80s I’ve since managed dartingtons ktbh and various home made jobs in a friends teaching apiary set up for display, and 1 set up as a queen rearing hive. Standard hives can also be operated along many warre principles like 1 size box and how you under super. You can even go foundation free in normal hives. Learn the trade and you will be better equipped to play to your heart’s content. You can also shift the lot if you decide it’s not for you. Ian

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As a woodworker, and a beginner you are much better off researching a moveable frame long hive (I omitted the deep for a reason) Long hives work on the same principle as the African top bar hives, but in our climate and with our bees are easier to manage.
Robin Dartington designed his hive using 14x12 frames (deep and some would say awkward) but still worked on the principle of putting supers on top, albeit half sized.
More people are now looking at the long hive system - Google Hyde hives, they make two 'standard' types (one is just a bank of nucs) and have just made a long deep hive to order and are filling their order book fast.
As you are making your own, you won't necessarily need some of the fancy bits they have.
Long hives work on the principle of an entrance at the end of a 'warm way' series of frames so the bees store the honey behind the brood which is near the entrance and the beekeeper can just pinch the capped stores from the rear.
The Hyde hive design is longer than the Dartington as it doesn't have supers, if you put an entrance each end of the hive (as the Dartington) when you need to conduct an artificial swarm you can put in a divider board to 'split' the colony thus basically running two colonies in one box.

Whatever you decide, it is always better and easier to learn to keep bees in a conventional moveable frame hive before moving on to top bar.

 

[bingevader]

It's difficult, because there's no easy way to learn the basics before you get started, for you to be able to decide which way to go.
A good course, and I'd definitely recommend that, will take you part of the way, but I can't imagine there are many running atm.
Shadowing a mentor for a season would be an option, but not practical at the moment either.
I disagree that a standard hive is cheaper, the Warres have cost me around £90 each to make myself.
As a woodworker the world is your lobster in that respect!
The Warre is simple to make, as you know, and I find it easy to work with and manage.
And yes, I do manage them for swarms and diseases.
I lift my warres a box at a time, but the long hives would seem a good option for your back, Pargyle's looks splendid!

 

[Ian123]

Even allowing for the fact your time is free £90 would kit out a considerable National hive that even the most incompetent wood worker should knock together in short order. A brood and super should only be costing £31.00

 

[buchaness]

my 2p worth, having had back trouble, long hive is fine, i built a long deep one yrs back and used it a couple seasons, same with a warre but with home made frames. The bees like both ok, from the back point of view your back dont use the deep frames, and dont have entrances at the end of the hive, If you do you have to stand off to one side and lift the frames, Which is bad on a sore back,
So a long hive with side entry Would be by far the easiest,

 

[bingevader]

Even allowing for the fact your time is free £90 would kit out a considerable National hive that even the most incompetent wood worker should knock together in short order. A brood and super should only be costing £31.00

£90 is all-in, good quality (25mm) red cedar (not seconds ), roof, quilt box, four boxes, top bars, floor, stand, no other extras needed.

Why are the flat packs so expensive then?
Maisie's rock bottom national is £172 atm (2 supers).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Flat pack deep - £15.00 ish shallows about £12.00, roof about £20.00 floor around £15.00 fifty frames £26.00. Who needs a stand?

 

[Ian123]

Flat pack deep - £15.00 ish shallows about £12.00, roof about £20.00 floor around £15.00 fifty frames £26.00. Who needs a stand?

Exactly......as to good quality cedar it’s a lovely product but quite frankly I have seconds kit that may well be older than you! The bees won’t give a fig is the truth of the matter and it has no reliance to the ability of the beekeeper.

 

[bingevader]

Who needs a stand?

Now I know you don't sit yours on the mud!

 

[bingevader]

Exactly......as to good quality cedar it’s a lovely product but quite frankly I have seconds kit that may well be older than you! The bees won’t give a fig is the truth of the matter and it has no reliance to the ability of the beekeeper.

I've spare ply in the shed I could have made it all for nothing!
But I think the bees wouldn't have fared so well!

 

[pargyle]

Long hives have there own issues with any half prolific bee they are swarm machines and I’ve made my first 1 back in the 80s I’ve since managed dartingtons ktbh and various home made jobs in a friends teaching apiary set up for display, and 1 set up as a queen rearing hive. Standard hives can also be operated along many warre principles like 1 size box and how you under super. You can even go foundation free in normal hives. Learn the trade and you will be better equipped to play to your heart’s content. You can also shift the lot if you decide it’s not for you. Ian

I've found with mine that swarming is never an issue .. the size of colony that they produce with just about any bee stock is incredible but they tend not to swarm as long as you keep giving them space. Mine is 14 x 12 and it may be that with these deep frames and 25 lengthways in the hive they have little need to swarm. As Madasafish says they are not massive honey producers - I've had up to 6 full frames of honey out of mine on a good year and left as much to see them through winter with more on top of the brood nest.,

Come winter I tend to manipulate the brood nest so that all the stores are to one side - my entrance is in the middle of one side and they tend to put the stores either side of the brood nest and I'm always fearful that they will paint themselves into a corner (It's never happened).

It's also a triple wall hive - inside there is victorian pine floorboards and outside is pallet wood - in between is a sandwich of 25mm of polystyrene. The roof is similarly insulated and I put extra Kingspan under the roof above the crownboards. I also seal the clear crownboards to the hive wilh alumiium tape which makes for a really snug hive for them. The bees love it and it is very easy to look after .. I don't find the 14 x 12 frames too unwieldy to handle and a lot of the time you can just slide them along sideways so you don't need to lift them for inspection.

The only real downsides to a long hive is building them yourself .. there are not that many building them (and they are expensive compared to some hive options available) and they are very heavy with bees in them - mine is more like 4 strong men to move it.

They are easy to split and recombine and a good learners hive .. I moved on to Paynes Poly hives but what I learned from my LDH was priceless. It's still useful as a bee factory - you can rob frames of brood almost weekly and they don't seem to notice - great for building up your honey producing colonies. I've never had bees in mind that have been remotely agressive and they seem to remain very low on varroa.

I'm just surprised that nobody yet has considered making a polysytrene or a combination construction LDH yet. They are absolutely ideal for those people who want a hive in the garden, just want a few pounds of honey and perhaps don't really want the joy of having a garden full of beehives.

 

[Murox]

I have never found swarming to be an issue in the long deep hive I have in the garden. Long hives have advantages that should not be overlooked.
The entire hive at a convenient working height.
Lifting is limited to individual frames.
No need for additional brood boxes, supers etc.
Potentially much greater insulation
Hive can be made for conventional frames or top bars.
The manipulations that can be carried out in a vertical hive can be achieved in a long hive, although the methodology is different.
The only disadvantage is it cannot be easily moved and deep frames do not fit into many of the smaller extractors.

 

[Beero]

As a woodworker, and a beginner you are much better off researching a moveable frame long hive (I omitted the deep for a reason) Long hives work on the same principle as the African top bar hives, but in our climate and with our bees are easier to manage.
Robin Dartington designed his hive using 14x12 frames (deep and some would say awkward) but still worked on the principle of putting supers on top, albeit half sized.
More people are now looking at the long hive system - Google Hyde hives, they make two 'standard' types (one is just a bank of nucs) and have just made a long deep hive to order and are filling their order book fast.
As you are making your own, you won't necessarily need some of the fancy bits they have.
Long hives work on the principle of an entrance at the end of a 'warm way' series of frames so the bees store the honey behind the brood which is near the entrance and the beekeeper can just pinch the capped stores from the rear.
The Hyde hive design is longer than the Dartington as it doesn't have supers, if you put an entrance each end of the hive (as the Dartington) when you need to conduct an artificial swarm you can put in a divider board to 'split' the colony thus basically running two colonies in one box.

Whatever you decide, it is always better and easier to learn to keep bees in a conventional moveable frame hive before moving on to top bar.

This is very interesting, a Hyde Hive looks just like a top bar but its square and has frames though, or have i missed something here.......