Bees like large comb?

[pargyle]

Somebody called ???? I was busy trying to squeeze some photos of Finnie's hives out of Finny but he's not playing ... some nice photos of natural beekeeping frames he's uploaded though - I thought he had changed his ways until I discovered he'd culled them from a natural beekeeping site !!

Anyway ... what was the question ? How do I treat the bees in my Long Deep Hive - very well is the answer - Do I treat them for Varroa ? - No. Have I got a full length mesh floor ? - Yes, but it's protected from draughts by a tray that sits underneath it. How would I treat for Varroa if I had to ? From below the mesh floor with Sublimated OA. Where is the brood nest ? - In the middle of the hive next to the entrance which is in the middle of the hive. Where do they store honey ? In the frames outside of the brood nest.

Mind you ... it's a heavily insulated triple wall construction with 20mm solid pine floorboards on the inside then a 25mm layer of polystyrene next and an outer layer of 15mm edge jointed pallet boards. The roof is an apex and there's always as much insulation in the roof space (and any unoccupied space in the hive body) as I can fit in. The crownboards are sealed to the top of the hive body with aluminium tape to seal them in (and they still propolise them shut).

Next question for beekeeper come carpenter ... who knows nothing (Finman)

For those who haven't seen the coffin ... feel free to dig around my Flikr account.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157634865981506

 

[Tremyfro]

Ha ha...I knew you would soon come to the rescue.
I wish I was brave enough to go treatment free in regard to varroa...but I'm frightened of killing the bees if they can't cope! I'm keeping it to a minimum though. It's really a lack of guidance...I read the level of varroa drop...and the recommended level at which I should treat. But if you are treatment free...is the level higher before you treat or do you just not treat and hope they cope? Or is there a threshold beyond which treatment is essential and should I wait until they reach that? You see how confusing it is? I haven't found the treatment free forums much help...

 

[bjosephd]

Tremyfro...

Sold. Sounds awesome. Demeree sounds a breeze!

(I meant warm way actually, but you seemed to get my meaning anyway)

Oohh Pargyle has posted... treatment free... now we're cooking.... on to read...

 

[bjosephd]

Pargyle... very nice coffin!

What frames are they?

 

[Tremyfro]

Be aware that Pargyle has been treatment free for a long time now but I expect he will tell us of his early experiences...if we ply him with

 

[bjosephd]

I'm allllll ears (eyes)

 

[pargyle]

Ha ha...I knew you would soon come to the rescue.
I wish I was brave enough to go treatment free in regard to varroa...but I'm frightened of killing the bees if they can't cope! I'm keeping it to a minimum though. It's really a lack of guidance...I read the level of varroa drop...and the recommended level at which I should treat. But if you are treatment free...is the level higher before you treat or do you just not treat and hope they cope? Or is there a threshold beyond which treatment is essential and should I wait until they reach that? You see how confusing it is? I haven't found the treatment free forums much help...

I counted (and recorded) mite drops on an almost daily basis for over two years in my LDH ... the drop goes up and down and there's often no obvious reason for the drop. The average was usually less than 5 a day on the inspection board and a lot of the time there would be no drop at all - but when it spiked it could go up to 25 or 30 ... I've even seen 50 on one occasion. What I tended to do was a sugar roll (I also did alchohol washes but decided I prefered not to kill bees) when I saw a spike in the drop and that usually showed a much lower level than the natural drop.

I'm an avid bee watcher and I watch all the time for any signs of varroa vectored disease ... I've never had DWV or any signs of Varoosis, I've never had any of the brood diseases (not even chalk brood) and if I did then that's when I would be starting to consider treatment.

I've never had any commercial foundation in the hives, they build their own comb, I rarely feed, have never had any thymol in the hive - not even in the winter feed - and mostly they overwinter on their own honey. Inspections are minimal and really only to check for stores, brood and queen cells - and as infrequently as I can get away with. Obviously, more in the swarm season and less at either end.

Apart from that it's a case of holding your nerve, being ready to treat if the bees look as though they are not coping with the mites ... I've not lost a colony yet, looks like all seven colonies have come through winter from the landing boards and through the clear crownboards but I'm not opening up yet as I can still see stores in the hives and there's weight in them.

I'm not suggesting not treating is an easy option or let alone beekeeping - far from it - you need to know your bees and have them close enough to see them every day - several times a day if you can. You will know when there is something not right with a colony if you know them well enough ..

And ... THEY WON'T DIE !!

 

[Tremyfro]

It's like me with the horses...I know almost before I see them if there is a problem. I'm lucky my bees are at home. It's true that each colony has its own nature too. I was thinking about stress on the bees too and how it could lower the immunity of the bees...as in lack of forage etc...like we had last year.
I have my inspection boards in ATM and am monitoring each day...as you say...the drops vary from nothing to 10-15. Sometimes only a few. When I open the colonies...then visual inspection of the bees will be possible.?..and I will do some sugar rolls. As you say...the natural drop doesn't always match the expected sugar roll.
Have you ever done a colony sugar roll?...where you shake all the bees...except the queen into the sugar...allow the flyers to go and shake the rest? I guess you would use this for a brood less colony.

 

[mintmoth]

I hear it often said that bees far 'prefer' large unbroken expanses of comb. The larger the better....

Has anyone tried Layens or Lazutin hives?

 

[Fusion_power]

I know almost before I see them if there is a problem.

Stand outside a hive of bees and watch the traffic on a normal day. It is possible to know if queenright, ready to swarm, having mite problems, and a ton of other information before opening the box. ITLD should give a short course on doing this.


The advantage of a long hive is that the brood nest can be accessed any time without having to remove supers. This is a huge advantage in a heavy flow. For similar reasons, the honey can be removed without disturbing the brood nest. Adding supers on top of a long hive compromises this advantage. Do not lightly violate this design element!

Bees tend to work upward as they raise brood in the spring. When the main flow starts, they backfill above the broodnest forcing it to move down. With a long hive, they tend to have the broodnest near the entrance and honey storage behind the brood. In winter, they tend to feed toward the back of the hive, then when the main flow starts, the broodnest moves back toward the entrance. Vertical orientation takes advantage of heat rising from the cluster to warm combs above permitting earlier expansion of the brood nest. Horizontal hives do not get this natural advantage.

The optimum size for a horizontal hive is a moving target. Areas with light flows producing 30kg of honey or less surplus per year have an optimum size around 20 Dadant combs or about 24 Langstroth. If in a more productive area with 70 kg of surplus, optimum size will be closer to 30 Dadant frames.

Management of a long hive is typically composed of removing honey 2 or 3 times per year, extracting or cutting out the honey, then replacing the frames to be refilled. This is a significant difference compared to vertical stack hives like Langstroth or Dadant where all the honey can be removed at one time, then return supers as needed for a fall flow. This is the reason horizontal hives tend to be used in equatorial climates and vertical hives in Finland! It is a lot less work to handle honey one time per year as compared to 3 or more times.

Frames can be from 31 to 38 mm wide in most designs. I've tried every possible variation of frame width and found enough advantages to 32 mm that I built all of my Dadant frames with this width. The main advantage is that a given size cluster can cover more comb and therefore incubate more brood in the narrow (32mm) vs Langstroth (35mm) or Dadant (38MM) frames. This enables faster spring buildup by colonies on narrow frames. The disadvantages of narrow frames are that they must be wired and supported so that straight combs are produced. Drone cells will be built at the bottom and sides which can make removing them difficult. Bees that build up earlier will reach swarm strength sooner so swarm control steps must be taken earlier in the year.

There is a significant advantage to larger combs but it is primarily a matter of how the queen lays eggs. She spends quite a bit of time inspecting cells that already have eggs and some more time inspecting cells that have honey or pollen or are not clean. She will also spend time wandering from one comb to another looking for a place to lay. When she is laying heavily, she will often drop eggs until she finds a clean prepared cell. These dropped eggs represent bees that could be out gathering honey. The objective of larger combs is to provide the queen with cells in which to deposit each egg she produces. This is not really an issue in early spring when the colony is small, but when it is approaching maximum population and the queen is laying to her maximum capability, the beekeeper wants every egg to count. The fewer steps the queen has to make to find an open cell the more bees that colony will field to gather honey.

This was written about by Brother Adam and was the primary reason he chose Dadant combs for his hives.

 

[pargyle]

Have you ever done a colony sugar roll?...where you shake all the bees...except the queen into the sugar...allow the flyers to go and shake the rest? I guess you would use this for a brood less colony.

No ... just too invasive as far as I'm concerned, I've puffed icing sugar over the bees on the frames on occasions and it does seem to promote a few mites to drop off but I'm not convinced it's a viable treatment. I went through a phase of culling drones from comb at the bottom of a short frame that was in the hive - but I used to find so few varroa in the culled comb that I stopped doing it on the basis that I was, again, interfering with what the bees wanted in their hive.

I have no idea what the way forward is ... I just keep doing what I'm doing. I'm not convinced it's all about the bees - or all about DWV B ... I think success with not treating is just a matter of circumstances coming together and a degree of luck. I am in awe of those who breed for desirable traits .. my bees are local mongrels, I've never introduced a foreign queen - indeed, I've never introduced a queen that they haven't produced into my colonies. They are all locally open mated - I've not had aggressive bees, they are not massive honey producers but they do alright by my standards and they are all healthy and nice to handle. I'm foundationless, smoke free, chemical free, high insulation, mostly low interference with colonies sited as near as possible to the lines of force in my apiary ... how all these factors come together - well ...

Who knows really ?

 

[Millet]

No ... just too invasive as far as I'm concerned, I've puffed icing sugar over the bees on the frames on occasions and it does seem to promote a few mites to drop off but I'm not convinced it's a viable treatment. I went through a phase of culling drones from comb at the bottom of a short frame that was in the hive - but I used to find so few varroa in the culled comb that I stopped doing it on the basis that I was, again, interfering with what the bees wanted in their hive.

I have no idea what the way forward is ... I just keep doing what I'm doing. I'm not convinced it's all about the bees - or all about DWV B ... I think success with not treating is just a matter of circumstances coming together and a degree of luck. I am in awe of those who breed for desirable traits .. my bees are local mongrels, I've never introduced a foreign queen - indeed, I've never introduced a queen that they haven't produced into my colonies. They are all locally open mated - I've not had aggressive bees, they are not massive honey producers but they do alright by my standards and they are all healthy and nice to handle. I'm foundationless, smoke free, chemical free, high insulation, mostly low interference with colonies sited as near as possible to the lines of force in my apiary ... how all these factors come together - well ...

Who knows really ?

It sounds like you have found your sweet spot, long may it continue .

 

[pargyle]

Stand outside a hive of bees and watch the traffic on a normal day. It is possible to know if queenright, ready to swarm, having mite problems, and a ton of other information before opening the box. ITLD should give a short course on doing this.


The advantage of a long hive is that the brood nest can be accessed any time without having to remove supers. ........

..... The fewer steps the queen has to make to find an open cell the more bees that colony will field to gather honey.

This was written about by Brother Adam and was the primary reason he chose Dadant combs for his hives.

Very much my experience with my LDH. I agree with all of this post. In addition I find that the LDH is a great donor hive ... the queens in this hive seem to really lay wall to wall brood and there's always a frame or two of brood to spare to add to my other hives to boost their numbers. As you say, honey from LDH's (mine are 14 x 12 frames) is a bit of a pain to extract and they tend to be lower honey producers. But, again, it's useful if you want a few frames mid season or a frame of stores for a hive that's looking light or a new colony. They do make big colonies if you let them keep all the brood they produce and in some ways I run the 'Donor Hive' system that Roger Patterson advocates in his apiary ..but just using the LDH as a feeder for all the others. Every apiary should have at least one ... Unless you live in Finland.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It sounds like you have found your sweet spot, long may it continue .

Yes I'm in awe of Philip's management of his bees. he's obviously really attuned to them.


As for a whole colony sugar roll....heavens, I've never heard of that. Sounds dreadful
If you want an accelerated mite drop you can sift sugar on the bees through the seams but if you're going to do that you might as well do OAV and follow up if you get more than say 50 mites

 

[pargyle]

It sounds like you have found your sweet spot, long may it continue .

More by luck than any intended good management I'm afraid ... I'm not a real beekeeper .. I can't bring myself to kill a queen who is still laying ...

 

[pargyle]

Yes I'm in awe of Philip's management of his bees. he's obviously really attuned to them.

ME ??? The bees just do what they want most of the time - I'm just a confused bystander generally !!


As for a whole colony sugar roll....heavens, I've never heard of that. Sounds dreadful
If you want an accelerated mite drop you can sift sugar on the bees through the seams but if you're going to do that you might as well do OAV and follow up if you get more than say 50 mites

Totally agree ... probably found on You Tube ... An empty crisp box, half a kilo of icing sugar - tip all the bees in - shake them all about ... Make sure you are well booted and suited when you open the lid ... Lots of P'd off bees I would think !!!

 

[Tremyfro]

Totally agree ... probably found on You Tube ... An empty crisp box, half a kilo of icing sugar - tip all the bees in - shake them all about ... Make sure you are well booted and suited when you open the lid ... Lots of P'd off bees I would think !!!

I'm not advocating it...I was just interested. 'tis all.
Just wondered if you had done it.
Interesting reading FP...some people have great powers of observation and record keeping.
I am really enjoying my long hives...the management is so much easier. My beekeeping is a fairly simple exercise compared to the far more informed beekeepers.
Learning more all the time.

 

[Millet]

Yes I'm in awe of Philip's management of his bees. he's obviously really attuned to them.


As for a whole colony sugar roll....heavens, I've never heard of that. Sounds dreadful
If you want an accelerated mite drop you can sift sugar on the bees through the seams but if you're going to do that you might as well do OAV and follow up if you get more than say 50 mites

I can't and will never be done with the sugar roll route OAV all the way depending..

 

[Millet]

More by luck than any intended good management I'm afraid ... I'm not a real beekeeper .. I can't bring myself to kill a queen who is still laying ...

Do not knock yourself , if you have succeeded in what you wanted to achieve you have basically achieved your goal, if i ever get to that stage somewhere down the line i will pat myself on the back. keep doing what you are doing.

 

[Little John]

Do bees like bigger combs ? In my experience, yes. I noticed a step-change improvement when I converted a KTBH into a Dual Deep (14x12) Long Hive. Prior to that chance event I wasn't particularly sold on 14x12, as I thought that generations of beekeepers must be right in their choice of a nine-inch frame.
Since then I've moved more colonies onto 14x12, and I have one - in two 5-frame 14x12 nuc boxes stacked one above the other - which, unless I'm very much mistaken, will be found to be bursting at the seams at first inspection.

Last year, having read Dadant's System of Beekeeping, I became curious as to what was the maximum practicable comb size, and duly started one colony off on 14x14, and at the last check it was doing fine. I do have another on 14x18, but that was set up very late in the season, and so has not yet been physically checked. The colony is still alive though.

There is one observation I would relay to the forum, and that concerns the layout of the deeper combs. Most of us are used to seeing an oval brood nest with a crescent of pollen over, and honey stored over that.
What I first noticed when running 14x12 in the (ex-KTBH) Dual Long Hive, is that this layout was absent. Instead - with the exception of postage-stamp-sized top corners of stores - there was top-to-bottom and wall-to-wall brood in one comb, the same for pollen in another comb, ditto stores in a third - and exactly the same layout for drones. My first thought was that this must be some kind of freak event, and commented on this to a friend of mine (former commercial beekeeper) on the South Coast who runs Dadant hives, and he confirmed that he regularly sees this.
Now I'm not saying that this exclusive designation of combs always occurs with the deeper format when running foundationless, but I've come to see this so often, that I now consider the 'normal' DN oval brood layout to be an artifact created by the relatively shallow DN frame shape. Does this matter ? I don't know.

mintmoth: Has anyone tried Layens or Lazutin hives?

Not yet - I do have a quasi-Layens hive ready to go, but not occupied yet:

Both height-adjuster blocks will be located at the ends when in use - one has been moved inboard here, just for the photograph.
LJ