Bees dead in the hive, not sure how

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am not wondering if colonies died by congesting ivy honey - I am only wondering if foraging for ivy wore out the winter bees, so they died after Xmas rather than maintaining a winter cluster thu to spring.

If that was the case, I'd be experiencing 100% colony mortalities every year.
What a ludicrous statement. You really are clutching at straws We've already established your 'winter bees' had been compromised by failure to treat in the autumn.

extra-ordinary situations

Extra-ordinary my a..........unt Fanny

 

[rdartington]

guessing varroa levels by counting mites on a board is notoriously inaccurate, by not treating until christmas time, all your winter bees were already compromised. I'd be looking at that rather than clutching at straws by blaming the ivy
and we all known about the general incompetencies of BKA high ups.
'losing many' is not really an accurate or measurable figure is it? and five apiaries isn't really a national, regional or even local yardstick

Monitoring vr fall is the method recognised in Defra’s Managing Varroa handbook - and is the method listed on page 58 of the second edition, 2021, of ‘Having Healthy Honeybees by John McMullen. Those authorities are good enough for me.
I treated with oxalic at Xmas time, as I have for many years, to wait until the Varroa Board shows no dark cappings, ie that there is no longer any sealed brood .
I am not blaming ivy - I consider ivy is fully entitled to bloom as it always does.
I am noting that the weather allowed bees to forage ivy for longer than normal - which could (so far unproven, but needing to be under consideration) mean that the winter bees needed to live thru to spring could have worn themselves out and died prematurely, leaving too small a winter cluster to survive. The small amount of brood in October that could be stimulated by the ivy flow would not match the far larger brood nest in early Sep that produces the normal ‘winter bees’.
Isnt suggesting ‘we all know about the general incompetence of BKA high ups’ insulting and rather arrogant? Being willing to give time to running associations does not necessarily mean they are incompetent beekeepers - quite the opposite.
Five apiaries is certainly not a national or regional yardstick, so I have not suggested it is. What I have said, asking around at our best local beekeepers, all mentioned losses. So it is not the number, 5, that is important it is the 100% of surveyed local expert beekeepers that is suggestive that we do have a problem in this south-east area - far from Wales, so not relevant to you.

 

[JamezF]

And such outright denial that there could be some link between two extra-ordinary situations is the way to block any progress in understanding how bees may work.

There is no outright denial in any post in this thread. Just expressions of doubt, counter-examples, and suggestions that other causes are far more likely.

James

 

[Ely]

I'm 100% sure ivy honey is safe. I have only fed my hives twice over the last 13 years of keeping bees on and off. They have lived off of ivy almost exclusively over the winter. Some people say you should provide water to help them break it down. I don't do that. When they are in a cluster during the cold winter they won't be going to the entrance for water anyway. They can eat it just fine.

 

[rdartington]

If that was the case, I'd be experiencing 100% colony mortalities every year.
What a ludicrous statement. You really are clutching at straws We've already established your 'winter bees' had been compromised by failure to treat in the autumn.

Extra-ordinary my a..........unt Fanny

You have an extraordinary capacity for inventing ‘Facts’.
You have not established my winter bees had been compromised by not treating in autumn. The fall in Sep did not reach the level of 8/day requiring effective control according to Fig 50 in Defra’s handbook.
as said, vr are at a very low level in my area, as monitored by the accepted method of inspecting varroa boards.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am not blaming ivy

You have an extraordinary capacity for inventing ‘Facts’.

well you're the expert there.

It has been accepted for years that natural drop counting on varroa boards is unreliable and pretty pointless, just because FERA still promote it doesn't make it reliable (FERA has been found time and time again to not be very up to date when it comes to effective beekeeping practices)

 

[JamezF]

It has been accepted for years that natural drop counting on varroa boards is unreliable and pretty pointless, just because FERA still promote it doesn't make it reliable (FERA has been found time and time again to not be very up to date when it comes to effective beekeeping practices)

As far as I recall Randy Oliver published an analysis of varroa monitoring methods in the last few years that covers the lack of reliability in varroa drop counting. It's also notable that universities doing research into varroa (I checked Oregon, Penn State and Minnesota because I could remember watching presentations/reading articles recently by people working at those three) recommend either sugar roll or preferably alcohol wash for measuring mite numbers. I don't think they even mention mite drop.

James

 

[rdartington]

well you're the expert there.

It has been accepted for years that natural drop counting on varroa boards is unreliable and pretty pointless, just because FERA still promote it doesn't make it reliable (FERA has been found time and time again to not be very up to date when it comes to effective beekeeping practices)

‘It has been accepted for years’…. Accepted by whom, on what grounds, by what level of beekeepers? Mites die and under gravity, fall. So are an indicator of the population size. Not exact, but an indicator. None invasive monitoring, excellent. All that is needed to decide if urgent treatment is needed. Included in McMullen’s second edition in 2021.
Fera found not to be up to date…. When, on what? Sufficient for everything this full time body to be totally disregarded? You can if you want to. I am more respectful.

This is my last post on this subject - which I note has been introduced in other discussions.

 

[Newbeeneil]

This thread confuses me. Robin seems to think that bees colecting ivy late in the season is possibly the reason for loss of overwintering colonies but my bees collected loads of honey prior to winter and I had one of my best years for losses only 6 out of 60. and the "Winter losses" thread would seem to indicate losses this year were generally small for most on here.
So could it be location or some other cause for Robin and his neighbours?

 

[rdartington]

As far as I recall Randy Oliver published an analysis of varroa monitoring methods in the last few years that covers the lack of reliability in varroa drop counting. It's also notable that universities doing research into varroa (I checked Oregon, Penn State and Minnesota because I could remember watching presentations/reading articles recently by people working at those three) recommend either sugar roll or preferably alcohol wash for measuring mite numbers. I don't think they even mention mite drop.

James

The best time to treat is midwinter when col is broodless.
You cant open hive and use sugarroll or alcohol wash at that time.
Mite fall is indicative and safe.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Mite fall is innaccurate and unreliable.

There, fixed it for you plenty of studies out there that confirm it. Do a bit of reading and learn about beekeeping.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The best time to treat is midwinter when col is broodless.

wrong - the best time is in late season/early autumn before the winter bees get compromised. Thinking beekeepers adjust their treatment method to allow for presence of brood.
Winter treatment is just a 'belt and braces' for those beekeepers that are unsure and should never be used as the main treatment

 

[Erichalfbee]

Mite fall is indicative

But only if taken over a whole brood cycle….. ie 28 days with the inspection tray cleaned daily.

The best time to treat is midwinter when col is broodless.

I doubt many colonies are broodless mid winter, especially a mild one.
With OAV you CAN treat over a whole cycle with no detriment to the bees and you can treat them so that winter bees are healthy.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Saw ivy nectar congesting brood combs for the first time last year. Photo 29th September. There's been plenty of ivy around in the past but never seen this before. I can imagine that this stalled production of winter bees. So all I can do is stress about how many I may have lost.

Don't know how many of my 9 hives have made it through yet but all still active.

 

[Ian123]

The best time to treat is midwinter when col is broodless.
You cant open hive and use sugarroll or alcohol wash at that time.
Mite fall is indicative and safe.

No the best time of year to treat a colony is the Autumn as this protects the bees that carry the hive through winter in to Spring. This is generally well accepted. Winter Oxalic was never meant as a substitute for this, it removes mites missed or hatched late autumn and gives the hive a clean start for the following season!

“You cant open hive and use sugarroll or alcohol wash at that time.”

Well you could if you wanted many of us opened hives to trickle successfully for years…. Plenty said you can’t!
But why bother just treat regardless of actual numbers 1 dead mite is a good thing, it costs pennies and takes seconds the hive benifits through the new season. There are no drawbacks!!!

You didn’t Autumn treat your bees and you lost a high percentage…….is this a great surprise!
And as you now know natural drop alone is not a great indicator and widely accepted not to be so!

 

[Ian123]

Saw ivy nectar congesting brood combs for the first time last year. Photo 29th September. There's been plenty of ivy around in the past but never seen this before. I can imagine that this stalled production

View attachment 35704

It’s common around me and happens most years there’s a reasonable Autumn. It’s a bonus and bees are well fed with pollen packed frames, it’s actually a good time to inspect and placing frames of foundation in result in well drawn brood packed frames. The pick above still has space wait till you get solid honey and brood filled frames! Every cell is rammed!

 

[Erichalfbee]

It’s common around me and happens most years there’s a reasonable Autumn. It’s a bonus and bees are well fed with pollen packed frames, it’s actually a good time to inspect and placing frames of foundation in result in well drawn brood packed frames. The pick above still has space wait till you get solid honey and brood filled frames! Every cell is rammed!

I’ll second that. A tip picked up from @Hivemaker. Pop a frame of foundation in during an autumn flow and it’s drawn in a trice with the queen laying it up. Works a treat.
Regarding looking in colonies I routinely vape ever colony a month after my last autumn treatment to catch any with a high drop which have been bringing mites home via robbing.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

It’s common around me and happens most years there’s a reasonable Autumn. It’s a bonus and bees are well fed with pollen packed frames, it’s actually a good time to inspect and placing frames of foundation in result in well drawn brood packed frames. The pick above still has space wait till you get solid honey and brood filled frames! Every cell is rammed!

Cropped photo a bit selective, true. This is full image.

 

[JamezF]

I doubt many colonies are broodless mid winter, especially a mild one.

There was a lecture at one of the beekeeping conferences relatively recently (it's on YouTube, but I can't recall enough for it to come up in a search right now) where graphs of brood numbers throughout the Autumn and early Winter were shown. The minimal levels were late October and early November as far as I recall, though there was quite a bit of variation, even between hives in the same apiary. I believe some were never broodless.

It was a small sample so clearly can't be considered gospel, but it makes me think that the suggestion of colonies being broodless in mid-winter is quite possibly another beekeeping myth. In fact now I've written this much, I believe the speaker was saying that brood-rearing at low levels through the winter may actually assist the colony with thermoregulation.

James

 

[JamezF]

There, fixed it for you plenty of studies out there that confirm it. Do a bit of reading and learn about beekeeping.

For what it's worth, Randy Oliver's piece (originally from ABJ in 2020) is here. He quotes one research paper (Fell, RC, et al (2010) The spatial distribution of varroa mites in honey bee hives. Proceedings of the 2010 American Bee Research Conference):

"The results of this study… indicate that mite-sampling data can be highly variable. Mite numbers from sticky board samples were found to vary by as much as 250% in as little as two weeks."

James