Bees dead in the hive, not sure how

[ericbeaumont]

heavy losses in north Hertfordshire

Yes, and in Essex, and up and down the East coast up to Scotland, both amateur & beefarmer. I know the SBI you mention, Robin, and his beekeeping is exemplary, so if he's losing bees, what does that bode for novices?

Spoke to a different SBI a few days ago who reported high levels of both Nosema apis, N. ceranea and CPBV in Herts.

On the other hand, I know another Robin who runs 150 and has had hardly any losses in Essex. He believes in treating in August with 10-week Apivar, vaping in December and packing strong colonies in smaller boxes for winter.

Losses I've been asked to look at, or heard about, reveal small colonies in big boxes, and varroosis.

 

[Wilco]

I think colony size to box ratio is a big factor- I've a Kieler I overwintered in my back garden which is a tiny colony. I have also wondered about the warm Autumn leading to shorter lifespan or CBPV over winter as possibilities as some large colonies have died out despite stores. Can't rule out varroa though and common things are common, especially when it feels like there's a trend towards not treating.

 

[Ian123]

On the other hand, I know another Robin who runs 150 and has had hardly any losses in Essex. He believes in treating in August with 10-week Apivar, vaping in December and packing strong colonies in smaller boxes for winter.

Losses I've been asked to look at, or heard about, reveal small colonies in big boxes, and varroosis.

Sounds good to me and similar to myself and others I know. We get good ivy flows most years and it’s a decent bonus for the bees, those with access consistently winter better/stronger imo Again most I’m aware of saying low or average losses. I do think there was probably more late brood reared but that in itself should be a good thing, suggesting late foraging and brood rearing itself is bad doesn’t stand up if they are turning it into brood that replaces these worn out bees when emerged.
I suggest late issues with varroa will account for many and those jumping the gun with early treatments or not on the ball will have suffered. I’ve seen large hives not treated before and they collapse with symptoms described.

So Robin what did you use as an Autumn treatment, I think I’d did ask on a previous thread when you mentioned losses?

 

[JamezF]

Lots of drones in that pile of dead bees...

I noticed that. On top of the pile, too, suggesting they were some of the last to die. Not sure how to interpret it though. DLQ perhaps?

James

 

[Michael Palmer]

I noticed that. On top of the pile, too, suggesting they were some of the last to die. Not sure how to interpret it though. DLQ perhaps?

James

Good chance

 

[Beagle23]

There have been heavy losses in north Hertfordshire - I lost just over 50%, thr local NBU Seasonal Bee Inspector lost 50%, the chair of the local BBKA association has lost 25%. The Bee Inspector, who is also a queen breeder, has no clear explanation.
Every col shows pretty much the same, plenty of sealed stores, thick carpet of bees on the hive floor, palm-sized patch of frozen bees on one or two frames, little or no pollen in frames. Little or no sign of Nosema.
So, could be queen failure but why so many? Could be a virus, perhaps a new one. But we also had an exceptional ivy crop - could the two be linked?
My own theory (unproven) is: queens come back into lay in late Aug/early Sep , those bees emerge in late Sep/Oct and feed up on pollen to enlarge their fat bodies, ie become the ‘winter bees’ that can live 6 months rather than normal 6 weeks. The winter bees are expected to rest in the hive and not go foraging. But this warm autumn could have induced the winter bees to forage the ivy and exhaust themselves, dying out in early Jan. If this is true, next autumn I will close the hives so they cannot forage the ivy to excess. But I need to know.
can anyone else associate a heavy ivy crop with excess colony deaths?


.

I think you might be onto something with the late ivy. My girls were bringing it in well into November

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think you might be onto something with the late ivy. My girls were bringing it in well into November

why would that be a 'problem' later brood rearing just means later 'winter bees' which means they will last longer into the following spring.
We always have late ivy around here - makes no difference whatsoever to the bees or to their winter survival. I'm afraid that is a 'theory' which holds no credence whatsoever.

 

[JamezF]

We always have late ivy around here - makes no difference whatsoever to the bees or to their winter survival. I'm afraid that is a 'theory' which holds no credence whatsoever.

Same situation here. I'm fairly sure that ivy is what actually gets my bees through the winter most of the time.

James

 

[rdartington]

why would that be a 'problem' later brood rearing just means later 'winter bees' which means they will last longer into the following spring.
We always have late ivy around here - makes no difference whatsoever to the bees or to their winter survival. I'm afraid that is a 'theory' which holds no credence whatsoever.

In the south east, but perhaps not in Wales, we have had two exceptional events occurring at the same time - huge surge in ivy crop and huge increase in colony deaths in hives very well supplied with sealed stores. so it is reasonable to look for a link between the two.
The argument that a strong ivy flow would induce late brood rearing that would replace loss of foragers does not take into account the likely numbers. Normally, ‘winter bees’ come from eggs laid in late Aug and early Sep, when weather is warm so large patches of brood can be reared. Locally adapted ‘black’ bees or dark bees (like mine) then stop rearing brood in Oct - yellow bees probably have Italian blood and can lay later as Italy does not have the same winter. So if the normal winter bees wore out by foraging a strong ivy flow, it is too simple to assume losses would be made up by late brood rearing.
We need to understand what happened. My losses - and the Seasonal Bee Inspector’s losses - if repeated make beekeeping unviable. At present we have blossom coming out about two weeks earlier than in the past, coupled with ongoing cold weather so that foragers are not flying and not bringing in pollen. Colonies are not expanding. I need to build up the surviving colonies for splitting to replace losses, although that will reduce the honey crop further. It’s not looking good all round.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

by the looks of it, you are isolated incidents rather than the norm

 

[rdartington]

Sounds good to me and similar to myself and others I know. We get good ivy flows most years and it’s a decent bonus for the bees, those with access consistently winter better/stronger imo Again most I’m aware of saying low or average losses. I do think there was probably more late brood reared but that in itself should be a good thing, suggesting late foraging and brood rearing itself is bad doesn’t stand up if they are turning it into brood that replaces these worn out bees when emerged.
I suggest late issues with varroa will account for many and those jumping the gun with early treatments or not on the ball will have suffered. I’ve seen large hives not treated before and they collapse with symptoms described.

So Robin what did you use as an Autumn treatment, I think I’d did ask on a previous thread when you mentioned losses?

Ian asks about varroa treatment.
I do rely on the varroa board to indicate strength of infection - and all my colonies had minute falls - difficult to find and vr at all. So I delayed until after Xmas to treat all cols with Oxalic vapour - and got negligible falls. Unless my eyesight is failing, vr not the problem in my area.

 

[rdartington]

by the looks of it, you are isolated incidents rather than the norm

My apiaries with 18 cols going into winter, the Bee inspector 15 miles away losing half, the second largest beekeeper in Hitchin losing many, the chair of the local branch of BBKA losing many. How many before you agree not isolated incidents?

 

[The Stung]

Is it possible that the late Ivy flow is because of the mild weather conditions we experienced last winter, and it's actually the weather pattern that's the real cause?

The mild weather conditions and plentiful forage meant a larger proportion of bees kept the brood nest larger for longer, perhaps allowing a larger mite population to build up after treatments. A larger proportion of colonies may have attempted late swarms or supercedures, and then we had just one sudden cold snap to prevent successful mating.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ian asks about varroa treatment.
I do rely on the varroa board to indicate strength of infection - and all my colonies had minute falls - difficult to find and vr at all. So I delayed until after Xmas to treat all cols with Oxalic vapour - and got negligible falls. Unless my eyesight is failing, vr not the problem in my area.

guessing varroa levels by counting mites on a board is notoriously inaccurate, by not treating until christmas time, all your winter bees were already compromised. I'd be looking at that rather than clutching at straws by blaming the ivy
and we all known about the general incompetencies of BKA high ups.
'losing many' is not really an accurate or measurable figure is it? and five apiaries isn't really a national, regional or even local yardstick

 

[Ian123]

Ian asks about varroa treatment.
I do rely on the varroa board to indicate strength of infection - and all my colonies had minute falls - difficult to find and vr at all. So I delayed until after Xmas to treat all cols with Oxalic vapour - and got negligible falls. Unless my eyesight is failing, vr not the problem in my area.

Varro boards are unreliable I think most accept that, I’ve few and if there’s 1 in an apiary to give an indication of treatment effectiveness that’s about it for me!
Oxalic Winter treatments are not imo a treatment for the season past but simply belt and braces and to give the colony a clean as possible start for the upcoming season. You may have monitored drop after but in no way would this be reliable, you didn’t monitor on those already dead! and those on their last legs would not give reliable results!
To say varroa in your area is not an issue is plain wrong, it’s obviously easy to blame but it’s there in all hives. When looking for theories the obvious is the best place to start.
Simply put you did not treat in the Autumn and you’ve lost a large percentage, varroa in all likelihood played a considerable part!

 

[JamezF]

we have had two exceptional events occurring at the same time - huge surge in ivy crop and huge increase in colony deaths in hives very well supplied with sealed stores. so it is reasonable to look for a link between the two.

This is exactly the way to convince yourself that mere correlation is causation, and how many beekeeping myths appear to have started.

James

 

[Garry R]

I have been lucky perhaps in that I have not lost any of my colonies (6/6 survival) but their strength yesterday varies from 3 frames of brood up to "Oh my God" in a long 14 x 12 framed hive with 11 frames covered in BIAS and bees on 15 frames altogether. I do wonder if the weather pattern has something to do with it? As we know the weather went from mild to wet to cold in irregular cycles in which I believe smaller colonies will have led to a stop/start state of egg laying and brood rearing and subsequently leading to an unusual complement of winter and summer aged bees in the colony for the usual clustering period . Just a thought.

I tend to put a slab of fondant on top of my bee frames from New Year onwards after the oxalic trickle - a hangover from my days of keeping bees in Aberdeenshire (but now in Somerset) and in polyhives since 1977. None of your little block of fondant on the crownboard hole with a prayer that it is over the cluster and they may reach it. I did notice this year that my bees were not clustering centrally and were in a lower corner on one side in 4 of the 6 hives and maybe the wind and cold this year was from a different direction dictating the cluster position. If the centre hole was used the bee cluster would have been way off target but because I had placed the slab on the frames they were well provided. My hives are all poly with OMF or in the long hive a sandwiched wooden hive with 25mm filling to the sandwich also OMF. Lots of thoughts here probably rubbish but it's nice to speculate.

 

[Popparand]

I have already lost over 50% and fear more to come. No common denominator. Plenty of stores, no sign of disease/varroa infestation and all hives well insulated. We did have a good and late ivy flow, but ivy is not poisonous to bees. Fluctuating temperatures causing clusters to break up? All a but depressing.

 

[rdartington]

I have already lost over 50% and fear more to come. No common denominator. Plenty of stores, no sign of disease/varroa infestation and all hives well insulated. We did have a good and late ivy flow, but ivy is not poisonous to bees. Fluctuating temperatures causing clusters to break up? All a but depressing.

I am not wondering if colonies died by congesting ivy honey - I am only wondering if foraging for ivy wore out the winter bees, so they died after Xmas rather than maintaining a winter cluster thu to spring.

 

[rdartington]

This is exactly the way to convince yourself that mere correlation is causation, and how many beekeeping myths appear to have started.

James

And such outright denial that there could be some link between two extra-ordinary situations is the way to block any progress in understanding how bees may work.