bees avoiding the super

[menteth]

Hello everyone, this is my first thread, so apologies if i get this wrong and it ends up in cyberspace.

I'm pretty new to this bee lark (2nd year). My problem is this: I just cannot get my bees to enter the brood chamber. They'll go in there ie there's always a handful kicking around in there, but they wont draw out the wax foundation etc. (national hive with super on top). I've tried removing the queen excluder which has been off for 6 weeks now. And still they wont go up.

The hive is absolutely rammed with bees and brood. Every frame is stuffed with brood, right to the top and sides. So much so that there's no room for honey stores etc. I can't see them carrying on like this.

It's a new super with new frames and foundation. Surely this new super can't be haunted.

Could it be the foundation? OR are my bees just being a bit snobby about the decor of their new larder. How do I encourage them up.

Any ideas
Thank to all

 

[Finman]

.
Only idea is that the hive is too cold and bees must protect brood.
That is why they do not occupye the super.

With your short experience you cannot valuate conditions.
It is often difficult to me too. Bees just do not rise to next box.

Put the suoer under the brood box. Bees enlarge thdere when they are ready to it.

Put ventilation smaller and keep upstairs closed that there is no heat leaks.

Brood + super is a small hive. If you look bees after cold night they have made tighter cluster.

.

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[Poly Hive]

How many frames of brood?

Kind of hive and floor?

Strain of bee if known?

Supplier of foundation?

PH

 

[Andy Duff]

Try a feeder above the hole in the crown board with1:1 sugar water, if they still won't go up there might be some contamination in the foundation that they are wary of. Keep the Q excluder off while you try this.

 

[enrico]

We are in a heat wave now fin man so it is not the cold! Some bees just hate building wax, if they have little food because all the frames are full of brood then I too would suggest trying a feeder for a coupe of days, dribble some through the super and into the brood box without the QE on, as soon a they start to draw it out remove the food and replace the QE. I had a hive of local welsh bees that I used to despair with building wax, they have since been crossed with prolific bees and all is now well. Encourage them as best you can, maybe remove an end frame from the bb and put the super frame in for a couple of days to get them going and then put it in the centre of the super......trying to think outside the box for you!!
Best of luck
E

 

[menteth]

Thanks Finman, Yes it is an exposed spot. Sunny but also a bit windy, and its been a cold summer so far. Should i rotate the doorway away from the wind?
I have it facing south at the moment.
On the quantity of brood:
I've been creating space, by taking the odd frame of sealed brood, and transferring it to a new and weak nuc next door. Seems to have taken the pressure off.
Will put super below.
Also, every week there are about 30 play queen cups. It is a new queen (the old one left a month ago with a swarm). Could they swarm again? or are they just having fun with me having full knowledge of my novice status?
Thanks

 

[Poly Hive]

Can you answer the posted questions please and is this new queen laying?

PH

 

[menteth]

hello poly hive, thanks for your reply:
national hive .
The floor: well, its an old hive. mesh with no removable tray etc.
Strain of bees- I haven't a clue. I was given the empty hive by someone, which we left by the front door, and while we were away camping, these wild ones moved in. Not the ideal spot, though we haven't been stung yet (except our 3 year old who go-carted into it). So I dont know their origins. In this hive the bees seem a lot smaller (than our other hive which is a greek nuc) and quite black.
The foundation came with a hive I bought from the net, The foundation seems very thin and very different from foundation that I've bought here. My hunch is Foundation.
Thanks

 

[menteth]

Hi again poly hive. Sorry I'm a really slow typist (hooves). The Queen hatched about 5-6 weeks ago. So we've had about a month of laying. She's a crazy layer. and seemingly organized. Lovely pattern in the brood chamber. Though no room for food: Just tiny spaces in the corners of the outer 2 frames.
Thanks

 

[menteth]

Hi enrico
thanks for your ideas. Yes, I was going to try the super frame/brood frame swap. Though have been a bit reluctant as there's so much brood on all the frames. Right up to both ends. My idea is to ditch supers altogether, and just use brood boxes. Then I'll have more swapping options etc. Does anyone do this? or is it naughty.
Thanks

 

[Poly Hive]

I am going to make some guesses here but I think...

Weather.

It's been a constant deluge for weeks and the bees have not needed the super due to lack of income and they were queenless for some of that time.

I suspect if you let them alone, and or spray the foundation with light syrup, they will be up there by Monday. They do not need feeding in this weather.

I super on 8+ National frames. If your bees are much weaker than that then they may not be strong enough.

I am though a bit concerned by your foundation as they may, and I repeat may, have varnished it with propolis, making it "stale" in the parlance.

If it looks shiny when you tilt it to the light change out one sheet or make up another frame with a new sheet and see if they take to that.

As for putting it under... not in this weather, it wants to be on top if they are strong enough to need it.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

or is it naughty

No. Many double brood and some use deeps as supers. Most super with shallows because of the weights involved (there are other advantages in our fickle climate).

OSBs clearly use one size of box. I have used a 14 x 12 as a super before now.

If they need the space they must be given it or swarming is a likely outcome.

A question you seem to have avoided. Is the crownboard continuous or do you have 'ventilation' holes in it?

As your bees arrived as a swarm, and have swarmed since, they may well be of a swarmy nature. Some bees will use stores, converting them to brood whatever the weather and may swarm as soon as the brood box is full. I would advise requeening with a queen with decent traits.

The foundation may well be dodgy (more animal fat, less real wax and full of icides?) or just very stale, such that it is not so enticing. I would not be surprised if of foreign origin (chinese by any chance?). Flashing over with a hairdrier may help.

 

[yeogi75]

as a novice my self,would think foundation a bit iffy if not known where from, as manufactured or home made for sale purposes.
also bit worried where your hive is sited next to front door, and children banging into it with bikes or what ever,pity the postman

 

[menteth]

Hi Oliver90, thanks for reply.
The crown board, has one vent in the middle (a one way valve). If it's windy, should I block this?
The history of the bees, are that the moved in not last summer, but the one before.
Last summer, they made no queen cups at all and produced lots of honey, so seemed to me to be a stable bunch. Though It was my first year, and I didn't have a clue (and clearly still don't). This year they caught me (and swarmed) on the only nice june day!
They are, this year, certainly making lots of queen cups.
Will a new queen hatch, lay, and then swarm in one season? Hope not.

A very good Idea to breeze over the foundation with a dryer. Could be chinese, as it looks nothing like local foundation I've bought here.
Thanks

 

[menteth]

Hi Yeogi75,
I've nailed up the front door.

 

[itma]

Suggest you follow Finman's advice and put the shallow box underneath the brood (a nadir, rather than a 'super').
Doing that doesn't need waiting for new foundation. As RAB indicates, a GENTLE waft with a merely warm hairdryer should make your foundation smell properly nice and beeswaxy. (If not, stick it under anyway, while you order some fresh stuff.)
And if you have another super and frames, put it on top as well as the nadir. No QX anywhere for now.

After they have made a solid start on drawing the comb, reconfigure the hive and (having established that HMQ is where she should be), give them the QX.

Until then beware of swarming - you may have to do an A/S.
If you do the A/S, its a chance to stick a couple of shallow frames in the new swarm brood, and get them drawn, before replacing them with proper brood frames. Those frames can later help 'seed' the drawing of a super, with hopefully much less anxiety.

To prevent them swarming, one thing you could try is extracting any (yes brood box, deeper) frames that have no brood and mostly (if not entirely) capped honey. (Those frames won't fit every extractor, so ask around to see who might offer you that facility.)
The extracted frames can be returned to the hive as 'instant' new laying space ... reducing the pressure to swarm.

I happen to think that when the brood gets fragmented (like a fragmented hard disk, scattered wherever there is a scrap of space), then swarming isn't far away.

 

[itma]

...
Last summer, they made no queen cups at all and produced lots of honey, so seemed to me to be a stable bunch. ...

So surely you must have some drawn shallow frames to 'start' (or seed) this super?

 

[menteth]

Hi Itma, thanks for your ideas. Yes, providing them with the choice to go up or down by giving them room seems sensible to me. Will try.

I have no drawn foundation from last year, as, in a banal fit of crazed lunacy, I gave all the honey away in its combs. And the bees know it, and they're now punishing me for it.

Last year was my first extraction, and it took ages to get over the guilt.

The swarming thing; I'm surely going to keep an eye out. I cannot extract honey from the brood box to create room, as there is none. There is brood on all the frames, right up to the edges. Thats why i was taking out brood racks and putting transferring into a weak nuc next door. will put super below.

Thanks very much.

 

[Finman]

Try a feeder above the hole in the crown board with1:1 sugar water, s.

Holy ship!!! This shain is again full of stupid advices.

The colony will occuphye the super when it is ready to that.

no sugar, no hair dryer no anything.

When the hive is cold, the empty box makes the hive just colder. Heat rises up. One box hive is small.

Every hive has sometimes one box full of bees and brood and no one invite with syrup or with hair dryer to next box

Are you really mad in your suggestions!!!

Here a beginners makes fault observations from his hive and other goes on walls like ping pong ball.

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[Finman]

Hi Oliver90, thanks for reply.
The crown board, has one vent in the middle (a one way valve). If it's windy, should I block this?ks

That is the reason

. Mesh floor and
hole open in inner cover
and one box of bees.