bees and fondant

[Haughton Honey]

The massive advantage of over-wintering in a single box...

Ben P

I tend to disagree with that...............!

 

[drstitson]

Wpc

(i think )all Ben P was simply stressing is that wintering on a single brood box leaves NO chance for the mistake, which several people have made this year, of leaving on the QE and potentially losing the queen when the cluster moves up/down.

the other big advantage (than Finman will support) is that a single box (of whatever size) is better for the bees temp wise ie less dead space.

 

[Rosti]

Single or double box for wintering

I think I am with Ben on this as well.

Reasons: points raised already and if .... if .... IF .... (see separate thread) you are a beek of a disposition to treat with OA during winter then a single box (by definition) makes sure that your frames are aligned vertically so that the tricked OA solution finds its mark however low the cluster is in the brood area.

Whenever I use a double box and carefully align frames vertically the damn frame fairy comes along and moves them when my back is turned, little blighter that she is!

Come to that, for me, a 14x12 has more advantages than drawbacks over brood and 1/2 - BB+super - during summer as well (again, see separate thread!)

 

[Dave /Oscroft]

14x12

I think I am with Ben on this as well.

Reasons: points raised already and if .... if .... IF .... (see separate thread) you are a beek of a disposition to treat with OA during winter then a single box (by definition) makes sure that your frames are aligned vertically so that the tricked OA solution finds its mark however low the cluster is in the brood area.

Whenever I use a double box and carefully align frames vertically the damn frame fairy comes along and moves them when my back is turned, little blighter that she is!

Come to that, for me, a 14x12 has more advantages than drawbacks over brood and 1/2 - BB+super - during summer as well (again, see separate thread!)

Last year I used 14x12 's but even they didnt seem to be big enough for the carnies ! so now iv'e got a dam mix of sizes of BB,s 14x12 + a half and also double brood. So now i dont know what to do this year wether to change the whole lot for something bigger or just go to double brood for the lot.

Dave W

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Last year I used 14x12 's but even they didnt seem to be big enough for the carnies ! so now iv'e got a dam mix of sizes of BB,s 14x12 + a half and also double brood. So now i dont know what to do this year wether to change the whole lot for something bigger or just go to double brood for the lot.

Dave W

Split?

 

[oliver90owner]

Single or double box for wintering......a 14x12 has more advantages than drawbacks


I am with Ben and Rosti on this.

The main drawback of a 14 x 12, apart from the all-up weight, is that there may be more honey left in the brood box at the harvest. This does not particularly bother me, but it may bother some.

Advantages of:
no frame gap between boxes,
more than enough stores for winter,
extra depth in the box (over a single brood) so the colony can move upwards if there is a very cold spell (like last month!),
no need for fondant early in the winter,
larger box for a more ideal (spherical) brood nest shape,
no restriction on laying space early in the spring build-up,
no extra joints below 'roof-cover' for the winter,
easier to move than a brood+half,
can easily overwinter on ten frames (if necessary),
larger panels for insulation (if fitted),
less likely to swarm early due to brood restriction,
and perhaps a few I have missed.

Other down sides might be:
getting comb drawn as easily and evenly as the deep brood,
having to make a decent frame feeder,
slightly more fragile comb in the frames,
greater chance of breaking a lug on a frame (I use seconds),
getting later nucs up to a full box ( I shall not be troubled with this now I have enough 6 frame polynucs),
needing more thymol for an effective mite knock-down,
big colonies (when they get upset!),
and perhaps a few more.

Overall single brood on 14 x 12 is a resounding plus for me. I am not considering regressing to deep broods in the foreseeable future.

Regards, RAB

 

[MuswellMetro]

Last year I used 14x12 's but even they didnt seem to be big enough for the carnies ! so now iv'e got a dam mix of sizes of BB,s 14x12 + a half and also double brood. So now i dont know what to do this year wether to change the whole lot for something bigger or just go to double brood for the lot.

Dave W

i would consider re queening with a non carnie strain, i have always found carnies, yes get big, but just convert forage to brood rather than Honey

 

[Haughton Honey]

(i think )all Ben P was simply stressing is that wintering on a single brood box leaves NO chance for the mistake, which several people have made this year, of leaving on the QE and potentially losing the queen when the cluster moves up/down.

the other big advantage (than Finman will support) is that a single box (of whatever size) is better for the bees temp wise ie less dead space.

Doc,

I have never found dead space to be an issue. As my profile states I prefer double brood over brood and a half (for many reasons) and having a second brood is not too dissimilar to placing a super below an OMF to 'prevent draughts', which seems common practice on here but not one that I apply, in that it would still increase the volume of space to be heated.

I think that bees inability to heat their environment is somewhat overplayed sometimes and I've never had a problem. IMHO, of course.

 

[oliver90owner]

Dave /Oscroft,

I still let mine go up into a super in spring/early summer for a short while, if they need it.

Regards, RAB

 

[psafloyd]

(i think )all Ben P was simply stressing is that wintering on a single brood box leaves NO chance for the mistake, which several people have made this year, of leaving on the QE and potentially losing the queen when the cluster moves up/down.

the other big advantage (than Finman will support) is that a single box (of whatever size) is better for the bees temp wise ie less dead space.

Yes, but with OMF, surely it makes little difference whether your box is a standard National compared to a 14x12 or brood and a half, as the same area is open at the bottom?

 

[Silly Bee]

(i think )all Ben P was simply stressing is that wintering on a single brood box leaves NO chance for the mistake, which several people have made this year, of leaving on the QE and potentially losing the queen when the cluster moves up/down.

the other big advantage (than Finman will support) is that a single box (of whatever size) is better for the bees temp wise ie less dead space.

At the end of the season, take off the super(s) together with the QE and put a crown board on,simple.

 

[BobH1]

<<Yes, but with OMF, surely it makes little difference whether your box is a standard National compared to a 14x12 or brood and a half, as the same area is open at the bottom?>>

Its the dead space between the two boxes which is the problem. In theory it separates the cluster into two halves.
Though I've read that having that space allows the bees to break cluster quicker and so take advantage of short breaks of fine weather.

 

[oliver90owner]

the same area is open at the bottom?

That is not necessarily true. Think polyhives, nucs, Langstroths, etc.

Indeed there is great lattitude from full open to only a lttle open?

Regards, RAB

 

[Haughton Honey]

<<Yes, but with OMF, surely it makes little difference whether your box is a standard National compared to a 14x12 or brood and a half, as the same area is open at the bottom?>>

Its the dead space between the two boxes which is the problem. In theory it separates the cluster into two halves.
Though I've read that having that space allows the bees to break cluster quicker and so take advantage of short breaks of fine weather.

I usually find that the brace comb built between the two boxes (top surface of lower frames joined to bottom of the frames in the upper box) is enough for both the Queen to move between the two during 'the season' and also for the cluster to move from one box to the other in search of stores during the Winter period.

I make a habit of not removing it where possible as, to me, it has more advantages than disadvantages.

 

[Rosti]

Last year I used 14x12 's but even they didnt seem to be big enough for the carnies ! so now iv'e got a dam mix of sizes of BB,s 14x12 + a half and also double brood. So now i dont know what to do this year wether to change the whole lot for something bigger or just go to double brood for the lot.

Dave W

I agree Dave, I have one colony (strain: apis yorkiemongrollis - a bait hive capture from the previous may09) that went to a 14x12 plus a std brood, (effectively 2.5 brood), we can only follow and provide where possible what the girls demand of us, but that is a different argument to whether you deliberately/plan to winter on a combination of boxes or a single larger box. With regard summer I will stick with 14x12 as my standard BB and give them more if there is the opportunity to achieve good critical mass and a very productive hive as a result (which is what this lot did)

 

[bramblebee]

Getting back to the queen excluder should it have been removed
and on the hives its on should i now remove it on a warm day or leave it alone
was advised by my mentoir to leave it on as he does with all his hives

 

[oliver90owner]

queen excluder..... should it have been removed

As I wrote on post #18

A disaster in the making, if not already. Another case of disturbing the colony ASAP or risk losing it.

Too true - it should be removed!

RAB

 

[Vergilius]

was advised by my mentoir to leave it on as he does with all his hives

Mentoir??? Is that French??? Only joking obviously... Ho do assocs pick mentors? Do they choose people who show a complete lack of common sense???

Think about it. Cluster moves round the hive consuming the stores as it goes... Cluster moves upwards into a box full with stores... But, oh no, guess who can't get through if there's a queen excluder... HM trapped in box below and without the cluster warmth she dies very quickly!!!

It's fairly simple.

Remove the QE(s) asap or hope that the cluster don't go anywhere near that super full of stores. I think, after reading RAB, you know what to do.

Ben P

 

[broandy]

Mentoir??? Is that French??? Only joking obviously... Ho do assocs pick mentors? Do they choose people who show a complete lack of common sense???

Think about it. Cluster moves round the hive consuming the stores as it goes... Cluster moves upwards into a box full with stores... But, oh no, guess who can't get through if there's a queen excluder... HM trapped in box below and without the cluster warmth she dies very quickly!!!

It's fairly simple.

Remove the QE(s) asap or hope that the cluster don't go anywhere near that super full of stores. I think, after reading RAB, you know what to do.

Ben P

Yep it looks like it Ben

 

[Heather]

Ben, If that is what he advised- then - please- can I help when you need advice, as his advice was POOR.

NO QUEEN EXCLUDERS IN WINTER SHUTDOWN- AND REDUCE HIVE SPACE TO MINIMUM

But I have come across a beekeeper with years of experience who had queen excluders under the crown boards with the feed above on every hive.
I am getting a headache!!