Bee space - 8mm of nothing

[drstitson]

yep - DN5 frames (tops and sides) but with manley bottoms.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

thanks both, not a combo I currently use. I use DN4 Hoffmans for BS and 14 x 12 and SN1 above. I was always wary about spending the extra few £££s for '5s' and haven't used Manleys for years. Perhaps time for a test. Do you think the suppliers will start to offer these combos now? I wanted to get to this talk but was over subscribed, but no memtion of this in the short bee space document I have from NBB. Thanks for the useful summary and discussion.

 

[REDWOOD]

Look at DN/5 and SN/4

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsframedesignations.html

 

[drstitson]

14x12s automatically come with the wide top bar so are technically 5s!!!! just the bottom bars to sort.

 

[REDWOOD]

14x12s automatically come with the wide top bar so are technically 5s!!!! just the bottom bars to sort.

So if you use the solid manley bottom bars, how do you fit the foundation to the new bar? as with the standard bars the foundation slips between them

 

[itma]

So if you use the solid manley bottom bars, how do you fit the foundation to the new bar? as with the standard bars the foundation slips between them

They aren't solid one-piece.
Manley bottom bars fit just like normal bottom bars, with the resulting slot for the foundation between the two bars.

 

[the naked beekeeper]

So what are the benefits of using dn5's? And what are the benefits of using Manley bottom bars in the brood box?

Am I right that you can't buy the two together? I.e. The bottom bars are the usual thin sticks with dn5s.

 

[REDWOOD]

OK Just looked on Google and I can see that they are 2 pieces 12.5mm deep, so this extra 4.5 mm stops frames twisting

 

[itma]

OK Just looked on Google and I can see that they are 2 pieces 12.5mm deep, so this extra 4.5 mm stops frames twisting

Not an extra 4.5mm ... !
Did you see my post #17 in this thread?
The principal consideration is the beespace between adjacent frames. The idea of the Manley frame is that there is no side opening, at all, between frames. There's a two beespace opening at the bottom, and one beespace between the topbars.

 

[busybee53]

Jackbee can you please explain the method of using the dummy board you are referring to? I am not sure how removing just the dummy board gives enough space to make sure you don't roll bees. Also how does the dummy end up at the opposite side? Thanks.

 

[susbees]

Jackbee can you please explain the method of using the dummy board you are referring to? I am not sure how removing just the dummy board gives enough space to make sure you don't roll bees. Also how does the dummy end up at the opposite side? Thanks.

A dummy board with a NARROW top pushed up against however many frames fit in your BB minus one leaving a little space behind it to the side wall.

Remove carefully and put aside.

Loosen first frame, pull towards you slightly and lift. When replacing it put against side wall. Continue through BB replacing dummy board against last frame. Start next inspection from the other end.

However, in the real world of beekeeping it's rarely as simple as never ending up with another frame out...

 

[REDWOOD]

Sorry but I am more than happy with my SN/4 and DN/5 frames, I have read the thread twice and can't get my head around it all, my three hives have never built brace comb between the frames the frames have not twisted, why change something that works, or is it late in the day and I have missed something

 

[drstitson]

Main focus of the talk was brood frames.
DN5 were deemed best (as you obviously feel).
The bottom bar issue was perhaps icing on the cake BUT did sound a good idea and likewise pointing out that some (ie T 2ns) hoffmans are too narrow in the lower sidebar.

 

[jackbee]

A dummy board with a NARROW top pushed up against however many frames fit in your BB minus one leaving a little space behind it to the side wall.

Remove carefully and put aside.

Loosen first frame, pull towards you slightly and lift. When replacing it put against side wall. Continue through BB replacing dummy board against last frame. Start next inspection from the other end.

However, in the real world of beekeeping it's rarely as simple as never ending up with another frame out...

thank you susbees, adds to my explanation well, cheers

 

[Teemore]

All told, I regularly work close to 30 hives at present. My own hives are 95% DN5 frames with the few remaining DN4s being cycled out. The other hives I work are probably 95% DN4. The difference in the amount of bridging comb in hives with DN4 and those with DN5 is striking. DN5s clearly have much less bridging comb between the top bars and make for easier inspections. I was put on to the virtues of DN5 frames by Malcolm Blake who delivered a couple of lectures at the INIB conference in 2010, not long after i started beekeeping.

 

[itma]

...
The bottom bar issue was perhaps icing on the cake BUT did sound a good idea and likewise pointing out that some (ie T 2ns) hoffmans are too narrow in the lower sidebar.

T's 14x12 Hoffman seconds are the only certainly-known-source examples I happen to have to hand.
I doubt that the firsts are machined to a different (fatter) pattern.

Has anyone measured any other Hoffmans?
Quite simple to do, even without an Aldi digital caliper.
Just measure the top end 'frame width' across the spacer shape from the flat to the point of the nose. Then measure the sidebar bottom in the same direction, where the notches are.
Who else has a 12mm difference between those measurements, and who is it that makes them with an 8mm difference?

 

[drstitson]

Interestingl the Cushman site details 35, 37 and 38 options for top of side bars for both national brood and 14x12 BUT in all cases bottoms are 28mm (ie 7, 9 or 10mm difference).

seems they are offering the BS "economy" style bottoms whilst being forced to maintain wide tops for obvious reasons.

presumably hoffmans are cut out in alternate directions (ie thin to fat) otherwise the economy option would result in loads of wastage.

 

[itma]

My T's 14x12 2nds are 35/23 (fraction under both), I have a bunch of DN4s from heaven knows where that are 35/21.5, and one single antique wax-moth raddled specimen that I was given (thanks my dear) does measure the magic 35/26.5

So Cushman is not necessarily the last word ...


ADDED - presumably, the wider Hoffman spacings Cushman quotes would be of interest to those using Hoffmans in supers ... and not caring about the beespace dimension between topbars ...

 

[Bob Bee]

Sorry but I am more than happy with my SN/4 and DN/5 frames, I have read the thread twice and can't get my head around it all, my three hives have never built brace comb between the frames the frames have not twisted, why change something that works, or is it late in the day and I have missed something

can someone point me to some pictures ?

 

[alanf]

Sorry but I am more than happy with my SN/4 and DN/5 frames, I have read the thread twice and can't get my head around it all, my three hives have never built brace comb between the frames the frames have not twisted, why change something that works, or is it late in the day and I have missed something

I have one hive very keen on bracing everything. I was assuming it was in the breeding but perhaps they are less tolerant than the others of the correct beespace.