BBKA holds old dears to ransom!

[Brosville]

"I'm fed up with this misguided sense of superiority and need to untruthfully rubbish what they see as the opposition all the time" - me too (different "they")

 

[Chris Luck]

interesting to see how the never look in a colony be owners deal with SHB,they won't of course,no more than they know if the colonys have afb..efb or any of a number of diseases.

I'll make a very brief answer to that, although I actually find the tone and attitude of some of the established members of this forum juvenile and condescending at best, which is as I already said "Sad" because it is unbecoming for anyone let alone Bee keepers to behave towards each other in such a fashion. Perhaps this is par for the course and their way of trying to stifle anyone that has a different view?

So, "Hivemaker" et al. To assume that because someone chooses not to open their hives on a regular basis, or indeed perhaps never at all, does not signify that they have no experience or that they never did open their hives in the past or that they don't know what they are doing or looking at. For a trained observer the slightest change in behaviour will be evident and the reality is that if all is going well, then all is going well as I would have thought all the "experienced" Bee keepers here would know.

There is another risk I would highlight here, (in addition to making assumptions). If a person or a group of people keep saying the same thing with enough apparent authority then anyone with less experience will be easily influenced. So my advice here is for all people to step back occasionally and think for themselves whatever the subject matter, look at all sides, look at all the information available from all sources and make your own informed choices AND don't be bullied by anyone.

Chris

 

[Hivemaker.]

For a trained observer the slightest change in behaviour will be evident


Okay then....colony has afb or efb....just started,what change in behaviour do we look for in the bee's without opening the hive....i know of no other way other than examining the brood combs.

 

[Brosville]

"most of the natural brigade are just that, some of them haven't even been close up to a bee never mind had the pleasure of looking after a colony"

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUTyYdCoRSM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUTyYdCoRSM[/ame]

 

[victor meldrew]

Neither does the inspectorate or wait for it "THEY ARE ALSO WRONG"

As Far As I can see you either take up beekeeping and be responsible for their welfare ( no beekeeper worth his salt goes through a hive just for the hell of it) or take up another pastime not involving any creature requiring hands on involvement ! 'end of' ( a horrible phrase but when in Rome do as the Romans do).

John Wilkinson

 

[victor meldrew]

"most of the natural brigade are just that, some of them haven't even been close up to a bee never mind had the pleasure of looking after a colony"

I rest my case .

Amateurish and plain silly

John Wilkinson

 

[rae]

So, "Hivemaker" et al. To assume that because someone chooses not to open their hives on a regular basis, or indeed perhaps never at all, does not signify that they have no experience or that they never did open their hives in the past or that they don't know what they are doing or looking at. For a trained observer the slightest change in behaviour will be evident and the reality is that if all is going well, then all is going well as I would have thought all the "experienced" Bee keepers here would know.

So, back to my question of a few pages ago. If you don't use any chemicals and don't open the hive, how do you deal with varroa? If the natural crew have an answer, I'm all ears, because I don't particularly like putting trays of Apiguard in my hives any more than they do. If there's a silver bullet, then I'm listening. And once we've done Varroa, then let's pick up on AFB, EFB and Nosema. As a beginner, these are all things I worry about, and one of the reasons I inspect my hives, so please educate me.

 

[victor meldrew]

"I'm fed up with this misguided sense of superiority and need to untruthfully rubbish what they see as the opposition all the time" - me too (different "they")

It isn't superiority it's common sense .
If you drive on a motorway , I hope you don't enter same via the exit route (just to express your individuality) A silly comparison? not really. Inattention to swarm /disease/ pest control affects other beekeepers and more particularly their bees making it a worthy analogy !!

John Wilkinson

 

[MuswellMetro]

Neither does the inspectorate or wait for it "THEY ARE ALSO WRONG"


John Wilkinson

the Summer Bee Inspector will quote the goverment line...so on varroa apiguard ,oxalic , Bayrol and drone kill

so thats no use of thymol...not apporved, No use of thymol patties, no use of Hive clean, not approved,No use of essential oil, not approved, No use of sugar dusting, well maybe just but will say it is benign and does little

 

[BlidworthBees]

I have not read all the posts.
The £350 to buy a hive, Is that a one off payment and you will get 12 jars of honey every year for life?
If so that a good deal.

To fill in the missing information for you if you are referring to the scheme at the outset

The SAGA hive sponsorship deal is £29.50 for one year and those joining get the following

(info from SAGA website)

As well as funding research and helping to train beekeepers, you will receive:

A jar of British honey or honey mustard
A honey dipper
Three newsletters a year
An adoption certificate
A window sticker
A honey bee fact sheet
Six colour postcards
A fridge magnet
A welcome letter from the president of the BBKA

This thread does seem to have deviated a long way from the initial post subject.

 

[freckledbeck]

So, back to my question of a few pages ago. If you don't use any chemicals and don't open the hive, how do you deal with varroa? If the natural crew have an answer, I'm all ears, because I don't particularly like putting trays of Apiguard in my hives any more than they do. If there's a silver bullet, then I'm listening. And once we've done Varroa, then let's pick up on AFB, EFB and Nosema. As a beginner, these are all things I worry about, and one of the reasons I inspect my hives, so please educate me.

Rae, I am only a very newbee, but from my current point of view, more 'natural' beekeeping means you limit your inspections to when you think they are necessary, (rather than checking every 8 days for example) and where there are natural alternatives to problems (eg Thymol, icing sugar) you use them.
I found this brilliant (quite emotive) quote which sums it up....

The Beekeeper. Are you one of the enemies of your bees? Are you a disorganizing force, pulling your hive to pieces too often and without cause? Are you careless in your manipulation, crushing and killing bees unnecessarily? Do you take their laboriously gained stores and omit to feed them adequately?
Remember that you are as a god to your bees, that you have in your hands the power of life and death, that you can create conditions of dearth or plenty, that you can work what are to them miracles.
Use that power wisely and with restraint.

 

[Chris Luck]

Okay then....colony has afb or efb....just started,what change in behaviour do we look for in the bee's without opening the hive....i know of no other way other than examining the brood combs.

Straight answer, no idea. Neither are known to be present in my region and I have therefore no experience with them. I wouldn't be particularly concerned myself with EFB as it seems that strong colonies will get over it. Although it may not be instantaneous there would non the less be a change of behaviour that didn't fit with the current circumstances, weather, nectar flows etc. All species have behaviour patterns, this maybe slightly more complex with bee colonies that also display their individual traits, but heck you folk "love" your bees so I would have thought you would spend some time with them - when you can of course. The catch is that the minute you touch the hive or even get too close to it you change their behaviour.

Varroa coming up shortly.

Chris

 

[rae]

Rae, I am only a very newbee, but from my current point of view, more 'natural' beekeeping means you limit your inspections to when you think they are necessary, (rather than checking every 8 days for example) and where there are natural alternatives to problems (eg Thymol, icing sugar) you use them.
I found this brilliant (quite emotive) quote which sums it up....

I'd agree in principle, but the reality is that you don't know when it is necessary. Take one of my colonies: from the outside a huge and successful colony, very strong, making honey faster than I can nail supers together, all good. However, as part of a regular inspection, we looked at a few drone pupae, and found a varroa level that is very concerning - 1 mite per 10 larvae. If we hadn't checked, we wouldn't have known. Drop seems very low (no idea why), perhaps we've caught the beginning of a big ramp up. So now we can take honey off and treat - because if we don't, they probably won't make it through the winter.

Pulling the quote apart, the only thing I am guilty of is inspecting them too often. So be it.

We have a "natural-ish" bee keeper near us, who inspects very infrequently and generally leaves them alone. I say "ish" because I haven't quizzed him on his approach to treating disease. It may be a coincidence, but his winter losses are pretty high.

 

[Nellie]

"I'm fed up with this misguided sense of superiority and need to untruthfully rubbish what they see as the opposition all the time" - me too (different "they")

Again, we find ourselves in agreement. I'm not interested in "who started it", but I'm fed up with it. It's creating a them and us situation that is far from helpful. We have a group round these parts fed a myth that we, as an association, aren't interested in helping them, that we'll try and persuade them off TBHs and force them to keep bees in a certain way and so on and it's just not true, I'm mentoring two TBH users myself at the moment. First and foremost we're all beekeepers, I might not personally approve of your methods, but I'm interested in learning how you're keeping bees and that goes whether you use a Commercial or a Warré.

Straight answer, no idea. Neither are known to be present in my region and I have therefore no experience with them. I wouldn't be particularly concerned myself with EFB as it seems that strong colonies will get over it.

Wow, that is an incredibly risky attitude to take. You might not care too much about your bees and foulbrood, but declaring yourself happy that your colonies are strong enough not to succumb to it and therefore you don't even need to check for it is incredibly irresponsible and selfish if not to your own bees then to everyone else's around you.

Catch it early enough and you can treat it with a shook swarm, leave it too long and it's petrol time.

the Summer Bee Inspector will quote the goverment line...so on varroa apiguard ,oxalic , Bayrol and drone kill

so thats no use of thymol...not apporved, No use of thymol patties, no use of Hive clean, not approved,No use of essential oil, not approved, No use of sugar dusting, well maybe just but will say it is benign and does little

Apiguard is basically thymol, if you prefer there's a new, certified organic Thymol treatment out, You can buy bloody thymol crystals from every beekeeping supplier if you don't want to use apiguard, it's not rocket science.

Sugar dusting is still advocated as far as I'm aware but there do seem to be questions over it's efficacy, we still recommend it on the basis that even if it only helps a little it's far better than nothing at all. As for bayvarol and Apistan while we still teach how to test for resistance, our official line is that Varroa round these parts are resistant and there's no point even considering using it.

Not got much to say about essential oils at the moment as I've not seen any studies regarding their efficacy.

As for Hive Clean, as far as I can tell, its main active ingredients are Oxalic and Formic acid, how is that not a chemical treatment? But it seems to work so if you can get hold of it, knock yourself out. Oxalic acid isn't approved as a treatment either but I don't think anyone will tell you not to use it nowadays whether you work for DEFRA or not. But I'm not an Inspector so maybe I'm wrong on that point.

 

[Rosti]

This post is not aimed at Chris as a person, we don't know each other, and in fact we both have an interest in using our keeping to promote local bee strains. But Chris' comments on intervention do represent a view point I struggle with.

We have disagreed on this point in a previous thread where you commented that "all I do is put supers on and take them off, I dont inspect". When challenged you reposted by saying I took a "superior" position. If you accept that beekeepers of any persuasion concentrate a bee population with the risk of concentrating associated pests and diseases it is right that we actively manage those risks in equal measure to taking advantage of our charges. On reflection I think you are right. Operating integrated pest management (ipm) and active intervention is a superior position. How we exercise that care and with what leaning to 'natural', 'nature identical', or 'synthetic' is not the point, management is being exercised, or management is not.

I asked the question then whether you were a beekeeper or a beewatcher, but perhaps that is the wrong phrase? by taking supers off again they presumably come full of honey which you take benefit from; is that exploitation - whilst not exercising a duty of care back?

What is the non-interventionist argument in the context of taking a honey crop & husbandry?

 

[sunhivebee]

On the question of varroa treatment, of which a recent bee inspection found none in my hives: the inspector took the view that a combination of preserving broodnest warmth and allowing swarming with its subsequent brood interruption was likely to help the colony deal with varroa. A bee inspector in Wales recently declared himself as having joined the "non treatment nutters". I declare that I am one of them - and I hasten to add that this makes me feel in no way superior, just in case some of the somwhat angry men on the forum should feel the gall rise. I consider this my private research project and do not recommend it to anyone who asks my advice. As for natural beekeepers never inspecting their colonies - why make such blanket assumptions? It just wastes time. As has already been stated by Chris Luck, to an experienced beekeeper there are other ways of closely monitoring the colony that do not, of necessity, involve routine inspections of the brood nest. Close observation and examining of hive debris on a regular basis will be found to be telling.
As for the tone and general disposition with which we talk to each other on this forum: in my modest and by no means superior view it is utterly unproductive to make generalisations and write as if spitting with anger. The latter, I find, is also a most unsuitable emotion to cultivate when you care for bees, as it simply obliges you to spend the rest of your beekeeping career dressed as if for combat - a rather strange outfit when in contact with such gentle and, as far as their social habits are concerned, superior creatures as bees. Hence I would plead for a self-check for anger and other unsuitable emotions before posting - for the sake of all those of us who have joined this forum to learn from each other's experience.
Warmest greetings,
Heidi

 

[Roy S]

I am now convinced there is no point in all this, only time will tell who is right. I myself would prefer to think that we are all beekeepers and can get along.
I cant take offence at being called a victorian beekeeper when as far as I can make out they all got along a lot better together than we do now it seems, and when my skep beekeeping has been a little limited.
I also have a fair bit of experience of leave alone beekeepers (two so far this year!) with their apiaries full of varroa, and having read a reasonable amount on so called natural beekeeping and contrary to what has been said I see very little difference between that and the afore mentioned leave alones.
As for leaving bees until they show some behavioural changes before any inspection is made for brood diseases, well I'm glad most of my apiaries are quite isolated. The thought of no one carrying out brood inspections for AFB and EFB because no one has reported any in the area is pretty scary especially if they were in my vicinity.

As I said earlier I remember times when most beekeepers were considered good guys....but now it seems we are imposters and only some elite beekeepers can lay claim to this.

Funny thing is though, I cycle everywhere I can, run cars on biodiesel. recycle and compost all possible household waste. have wind turbines and solar heating supplementing my household energy requirements. I also garden as organically as I can and have an allotment to cut down my food miles and to obtain better food, yet in a lot of environmentalists eyes I'm still not doing enough. The same arguement can be said about beekeeping.

No matter how much you do there are always people who think you are not going far enough.

I go into my bees whenever I think they require it. I work with my bees in letting them swarm in a controlled way (which I believe is what an artificial swarm is) They believe they've swarmed, I make increase, and the neighbours are happy....RESULT!

As for that video of someone taking a swarm wearing no protective gear at all...great...if that is what you want to do, but hardly what I'd encourage a newcomer to try.

This topic has to put it mildly, gone off topic in the extreme. But given the title I am starting to wonder what the motive behind it was in the first place.

 

[sunhivebee]

Nellie,have you asked Phil Chandler(Biobees website) to give a lecture on TBH/Natural beekeeping ?

He was an apprentice to Brother Adam at Buckfast abbey so has good credentials.

Yes, great idea, was going to suggest the same to you, as I, even if I managed to convince you of my credentials, have been somewhat put off by your manner.
Heidi

 

[Roy S]

the inspector took the view that a combination of preserving brood nest warmth and allowing swarming with its subsequent brood interruption was likely to help the colony deal with varroa

My colonies this year have all exhibited no signs of varroa, I'm not naive enough to believe they aren't present, but just low enough in numbers to not be seen or picked up in checks yet.

As for brood interruptions, you would get that with any form of swarming be it natural or artificial surely?

 

[Nellie]

Yes, great idea, was going to suggest the same to you, as I, even if I managed to convince you of my credentials, have been somewhat put off by your manner.
Heidi

Fine by me, I've been nothing but polite during this. Within 2 minutes of going to your website I learn I'm part of the problem facing bees and I'm supposed to just sit back and accept that with good humour? If you want to believe that then there's not much I can do about it but I don't see how any constructive dialogue can be had when you're entering into it upfront and arrogant in your assumption that you see me, without any knowledge of how I, or my contemporaries for that matter, keep bees as part of the problem.

Maybe you don't care what the beekeeping "establishment" thinks of you or your methods, but you'll get a lot further by not lumping us all into your comfortable little notion of what "conventional" beekeeping today is especially when it's so far removed from what is actually going on.