BBKA holds old dears to ransom!

[Chris Luck]

Well that's wonderful news, isn't it?

So no more scare stories about catastrophic bee declines, let's hope that people update their web sites and get the good news out in the media eh? I do keep an eye on some on-line UK newspapers and the BBC and haven't noticed anything about this yet, in fact only the other week there was another "how terrible it all is" article somewhere, (UK), I noticed.

Please excuse me if it has already been mentioned on here, being new I wouldn't know.

So, great news.

Chris

 

[gavin]

I don't know about France, but here the bee population has doubled in the last couple of years. Even the BBKA are admitting it now. And we have "conventional" methods to thank for it.

Chris, do you have a link for this doubling of bee numbers?

G.

 

[Chris Luck]

Strange you should ask Gavin, I've just Googled "Bee numbers double UK" and "Bee numbers increase UK" and all I get is things like "Middle class fad for bee keeping sees doubling in number of hives"

Source.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/7808793/Middle-class-fad-for-bee-keeping-sees-doubling-in-number-of-hives.html

Which isn't quite the same thing because doubling the number of colonies to supply people is easily done.

Chris

 

[Mosquito]

I have not read all the posts.
The £350 to buy a hive, Is that a one off payment and you will get 12 jars of honey every year for life?
If so that a good deal.

 

[Hombre]

I didn't think of you as a potential SAGA client before that statement Mosquito. I think you probably need to wash your mouth out with Blue Nun and get some arthritis treatment on your bum from the girls at the bottom of the garden . . . LOL

Think winter losses and drone layers.

Without looking back, I think it was Victor that cited the Jewish Gent's views on a certain business model. Have it, sell it, still got it - wonderful.

 

[Mosquito]

Just thinking if it was 1 off payment.
A Jar of honey at £4.00, you will get your money back in 7 or 8 years.
Then you will be getting 12 jars of honey for free.

 

[gavin]

Thanks Chris - The Telegraph isn't my usual reading material

I wonder what they mean by 'registered'. BBKA members? Registered on BeeBase? If the numbers were simply an extrapolation from this spring's colony losses survey then it should mean colonies of any beekeeper.

The Torygraph was still taking the line that internationally bee numbers are on the decline. I think that has also been debunked in scientific papers published in the last year ir two.

 

[Chris B]

http://************************/new...fight-back-to-ensure-honey-bees-surviva.shtml

This story obviously has a degree of "spin" but the underlying stats are plain. Over the last 2 years the number of beekeepers has increased dramatically and the average number of colonies per beekeeper has gone up too - net result colony count has doubled. These stats are based on polls of BBKA members.

Yes of course beekeepers are splitting healthy stocks to create new colonies, replacing winter losses and producing surplus for new beekeepers. There has never been a general population problem - it's only journalists and those who are easily influenced who have expressed things in those terms. BBKA have cunningly only ever talked about bad winter losses and let others extrapolate.

If you delve a little deeper through stats on the BBKA site it's clear that the bee population reached an all time low about 4 years ago but has been steadily increasing in line with beekeeper numbers ever since. A study by the University of Reading about a year ago also demonstrated throughout Europe a tight correlation between beekeeper number and colony numbers. Die-offs and health problems have been insignificant as far as the population trend goes.

.....the link has been hidden I've just noticed. It's easily found on the BBKA site in news.

 

[sunhivebee]

I think that's an overly simplistic view Heidi. I don't doubt that there are some lousy beekeepers in positions where they're passing on bad practice, the same can be said of any hobby or occupation but I think, as is also popular in parts of the "natural" beekeeping world, tarring all beekeepers with the same brush is disingenuous at best.

I had a guy come round my hives the other week (while he might "despise" my methods he still wants free bees off me, funny that.) amazed that I'm not dousing my bees in clouds of smoke, covering them in chemicals (still not sure what we're actually supposed to being doing with these mysterious chemicals, I guess Icing sugar technically counts as a chemical but hey ho), nor am I crushing them willy nilly and that they're not leaping off the frames to attack me all things he was told we do by the "natural" crowd.

I do happen to agree that elements of conventional husbandry need looking at and can assure you that where-ever I look I see it happening.

I'm not sure what you mean by "smash and grab" raid, that would appear to cover all beekeeping regardless of hive type whether a bog standard national, top bar hive or Warre for that matter. While I'm sure that for some watching bees come and go is enough most beekeepers expect a pot of honey or two at the end of the year.

My experience within the association so far is that, yes, there are a lot of small c conversative beekeepers who've been doing it for donkey's years and for some of them keeping bees is simply a mechanism to "make" honey and some of their practices I wouldn't go near with a 10 foot barge pole. Our association, since I've been a member, has always advocated leaving bees their own honey to winter on many of us don't clip queens and will present both sides of the argument to new beekeepers. As increasing numbers of studies show what's in foundation a lot of people are looking to reduce their dependence on that and so on. However, there is a lot of mythology and faith wrapped up in many people espousing "natural" beekeeping and a lot of the claims, at the moment, just simply don't seem to hold up to long term detailed study.

Fashionable claims to the contrary I don't know a beekeeper would wouldn't snap up a reliable, treatment free, mechanism to control varroa tomorrow. Again I point you to the widescale adoption of Open Mesh Floors.

As for inviting you to talk, with due respect, who are you?

Neil
Education Officer
Bristol Beekeepers.

This was my first post and I phrased what I said carefully; I expect the same care be applied in reading it. I spole of "certain" associations, and I object to the use of the term "simplistic" by a certain education officer named Neil. Do you just like argueing? Brosville, jointed by myself, were inviting discussion on husbandry. I have no interest in facetiousness whatsoever.
And as for who I am, well, that is a little difficult to answer. I manage to have healthy bees and my relationsip with them is superb. They are also superbly healthy.
With very good wishes to you,
Heidi

 

[Roy S]

Well it make come as a surprise to all new "natural beekeepers" that what you are doing is nothing new!

We had quite a few natural beekeepers in our association back in the 80's and early 90's. All of them followed very similar husbandry techniques to what you recommend. Then varroa arrived, and very quickly the numbers of these beekeepers started to wane. Nowadays we have very few of them if any at all left. The only difference as far as I can see between then and now is the name. Back then we used to call them "leave alone beekeepers"
To be honest they were a menace to themselves and others around them, and the craft is a lot better since they were either forced to look after their bees or loose them!

But each to their own, carry on with your leave alone beekeeping and I'll do it MY way as will most other so called CONVENTIONAL beekeepers.

 

[freckledbeck]

Make honey not war!

I think its good to look at things from lots of different angles... it seems silly to take sides and snipe at each other just because someone does something a bit differently to the way you do it yourself.
Surely theres enough room in the beekeeping craft for everyone, not just the 'conventional' beeks?

 

[Poly Hive]

Well freckledbeck it's like this.

If you have any understanding of varroa? Then you will know that people who do not treat release varroa laden desperation evacuations.

These little bundles of "joy" invade other colonies which (most likely) have been treated at some expense by a conventional beekeeper who is doing the best they can for their bees.

So in whose shoes do you want to stand? Because frankly there are two choices.

Be a beekeeper who is responsible or be a every so trendy bee haver who is a bloody nightmare to every one else's bees??

Your choice matey, but if that is your choice I for one do NOT want you around my bees.

PH (in grim and serious mode)

 

[Roy S]

I think its good to look at things from lots of different angles... it seems silly to take sides and snipe at each other just because someone does something a bit differently to the way you do it yourself.
Surely theres enough room in the beekeeping craft for everyone, not just the 'conventional' beeks?

Yes coulnt agree more, my problem with this natural beekeeping lark though is that once you've been keeping bees longer than say 40-50 years (in one case well over 60 years!) as some of our association members have, you tend to have seen it all before, albiet given a different name. These are the members I tend to watch listen too and respect. There are too many people who have been keeping bees for what seems like all of five minutes, and then proceed to tell new beekeepers not to listen to the old fashioned crowd and to follow the new way of keeping bees. I'm all for learning new techniques and making life easier for my bees and myself, but not by risking them or other people around them.

 

[roche]

Having said that, Roy, I have found that some beeks are keeping bees the way they were taught years ago, and have failed to keep abreast of new pests and diseases, or treat for them in a sensible way. I think you need to question everything people say, look for a basis in science or (bee) behaviour then adopt it or not...

 

[Brosville]

And should someone who keep bees naturally have little or no disease or mite problems, would RoyS and Co consider it reasonable for them to rail about "incompetent Victorian throwback chemical beekeepers firing off their diseased bees into nature" - that may affect their healthy bees?.......
I feel it also apposite to mention that to compare what Heidi propounds to someone just walking away from their hives is ignorant and uninformed in the extreme......... (if you are going to have a pop at something, at least learn about it first, otherwise you can look an utter fool!)

 

[victor meldrew]

Down with immunisation !!
Let the kids (and some adults )die of diphtheria like they used to when I was young un !
Schools closed for a week after every death whilst it was stoved , then sitting the first week of opening with the window bottoms covered with pieces of onion and orange peel to try and mask the stink.
Eventually all without natural immunity would die out ,leaving the fit ones to procreate . My A**e !!!

John Wilkinson

 

[Brosville]

Why do so many people carry on outdated, Victorian methods of beekeeping then?
(you walked into that one!)

 

[victor meldrew]

Why do so many people carry on outdated, Victorian methods of beekeeping then?
(you walked into that one!)

I walked into that one ?
No no no! you are blinded by your own damned pigheadedness

John wilkinson

 

[Poly Hive]

Victorian beekeeping was principally skeps Brosville.

Actually if you come on here to chill and produce this output I hate to think of the atmosphere on the forum you admin?

PH

 

[freckledbeck]

I don't think anyone recommends we do nothing about varroa, not even the 'natural' beeks?