BBKA holds old dears to ransom!

[sunhivebee]

"I think that there is every possibility that the answers to what ails bees may well be found in changes in husbandry, hive design, and a "nearer to nature"
approach all round - only time will tell, in the meantime I see many signs that there will be no support from the "mainstream" for such tactics - I'll leave you to wonder "why?""

I propose that it would indeed be very fruitful for a greater number of us to focus on the question posed by "brosville" . Why does there appear to be no interest in the results of "sustainable" beekeeping. Thankfully, many people coming newly into beekeeping have a strong interest in "bee-appropriate" husbandry and feel some distaste at some of the practices visited upon the bees in certain conventional beekeeping courses - and yes - I deeply regret to say that such practices (e.g. wing clipping, substitution of winter stores with sugar, excessive smoking, use of foundation etc.) are still happily taught by certain BBKA branches, but please refrain from shooting me down in flames, I hasten to add that a lot of the BBKA work is excellent.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, and this is backed up by my experience that husbandry practices which allow the bees to maintain the essential warmth of their brood nest AT ALL TIMES lead to healthy bees and very good overwintering. Another key to healthy bees that can deal with their varroa is the ABSOLUTE cessation of the smash-and-grab raid visited upon many colonies in autumn. And so forth. I am very happy to accept invitations from BBKA branches to talk about these issues and would urge anyone to raise the all important husbandry question within theirs.
greetings
Heidi Herrmann

 

[Nellie]

I think that's an overly simplistic view Heidi. I don't doubt that there are some lousy beekeepers in positions where they're passing on bad practice, the same can be said of any hobby or occupation but I think, as is also popular in parts of the "natural" beekeeping world, tarring all beekeepers with the same brush is disingenuous at best.

I had a guy come round my hives the other week (while he might "despise" my methods he still wants free bees off me, funny that.) amazed that I'm not dousing my bees in clouds of smoke, covering them in chemicals (still not sure what we're actually supposed to being doing with these mysterious chemicals, I guess Icing sugar technically counts as a chemical but hey ho), nor am I crushing them willy nilly and that they're not leaping off the frames to attack me all things he was told we do by the "natural" crowd.

I do happen to agree that elements of conventional husbandry need looking at and can assure you that where-ever I look I see it happening.

I'm not sure what you mean by "smash and grab" raid, that would appear to cover all beekeeping regardless of hive type whether a bog standard national, top bar hive or Warre for that matter. While I'm sure that for some watching bees come and go is enough most beekeepers expect a pot of honey or two at the end of the year.

My experience within the association so far is that, yes, there are a lot of small c conversative beekeepers who've been doing it for donkey's years and for some of them keeping bees is simply a mechanism to "make" honey and some of their practices I wouldn't go near with a 10 foot barge pole. Our association, since I've been a member, has always advocated leaving bees their own honey to winter on many of us don't clip queens and will present both sides of the argument to new beekeepers. As increasing numbers of studies show what's in foundation a lot of people are looking to reduce their dependence on that and so on. However, there is a lot of mythology and faith wrapped up in many people espousing "natural" beekeeping and a lot of the claims, at the moment, just simply don't seem to hold up to long term detailed study.

Fashionable claims to the contrary I don't know a beekeeper would wouldn't snap up a reliable, treatment free, mechanism to control varroa tomorrow. Again I point you to the widescale adoption of Open Mesh Floors.

As for inviting you to talk, with due respect, who are you?

Neil
Education Officer
Bristol Beekeepers.

 

[BKF Admin]

I removed a link at the bottom of the post Neil.

You can see the website in the profile here:http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/member.php?u=2938

Its under contact info.

 

[victor meldrew]

Without wishing to 'wax lyrical', I notice that the bees shown on the link are as far removed from amm as is possible to get
Not being 'versed' in the minutia of "natural beekeeping"leaves me wondering where flying bees thousands of miles fits in with the naturalness of it all?

I take it that this 'org' is UK based so one would expect native and natural would equate somehow ?

John Wilkinson

 

[Nellie]

ok, now I've had a look at it, where it gets tricky when it comes to any desire to say "come talk to us about what you promote" is when a central tenet of what you promote is what a bunch of *******s we are to bees to begin with which, funnily enough, a lot of beekeepers object to and reject to begin with, myself included.

 

[Roy S]

Oh Dear.....I'm sorry but the thing that gets me with this sort of thing is this "us and them" stance that comes up all the time. I'm sorry but as soon as you start keeping bees in boxes of manmade origin then its not natural END OF!!!!

I get sick of beekeeping organisations slating each other and all of this holier than thou crap.

As John has quite rightly pointed out....those bees in the pictures look to have as much native bee in them as I have! So how does that make them natural beekeepers?

Nah Heidi...sorry but until so called natural beekeepers start working together and stop trying to make out that conventional beekeepers are the murdering scum of the earth then they will continue to be treated as fringe animal activists.

Blimey I can remember when being a beekeeper meant you were automatically a good guy, aware of the environment, in tune with the seasons and flowers etc, and shock horror gasp quite a lot of us actually take up beekeeping because we think bees are amazing, fascinating creatures, not because we want to milk their hives for EVERY drop of honey we can squeeze out of them.

Then someone trendy comes along and tries to reinvent the wheel!!!...and while they are doing it trying to rubbish every beekeeper before them. They arent exactly endearing themselves to others with this approach. I've got an open mind on all things, but I'll wait till the claims are backed up with hard evidence before I'll ditch conventional hives and inspections etc!

Roy
Education officer
Liverpool Beekeepers

 

[Poly Hive]

They are fringe animal activists. Yawn.

It's a complete waste of time arguing with them. It's a troll situation.

PH

 

[Roy S]

BWAHAhahahaha..... and here was me trying to be subtle

 

[Stiffy]

Natural Beekeeping

From their website:
'The Trust encourages working with bees in a way which allows them to express their instincts fully through swarming, presence of drones, feeding on honey and warmth maintenance for the promotion of their general health and wellbeing'

If they want some swarmy bees I have a couple of Carnie hives which they can have and they look as native as the pics on their site!

 

[Chris Luck]

The Trust encourages working with bees in a way which allows them to express their instincts fully through swarming, presence of drones, feeding on honey and warmth maintenance for the promotion of their general health and wellbeing'

I know nothing about the trust but those are exactly my sentiments and the way I practise and more to the point it works.

Chris

 

[Roy S]

From their website:
'The Trust encourages working with bees in a way which allows them to express their instincts fully through swarming, presence of drones, feeding on honey and warmth maintenance for the promotion of their general health and wellbeing'

If they want some swarmy bees I have a couple of Carnie hives which they can have and they look as native as the pics on their site!

I know nothing about the trust but those are exactly my sentiments and the way I practise and more to the point it works.

Chris

Isnt that what EVERY beekeeper does?. We all allow them to express their instincts, but most beekeepers then channel and manage that instinct rather than allow swarms to emminate forth every couple of days creating havoc in built up areas.
I wonder how long it is going to be before this all goes horribly wrong in someones back garden??
Looking on the brightside, the more "natural" beekeepers there are the more swarms for the rest of us

 

[Brosville]

Well, I've been to the site, and I can't find all these accusations of beekeepers being the devil incarnate anywhere - could someone possibly point them out for me?
My reading is that it's propounding a different approach to beekeeping that dares to challenge a few of the "carved in stone" tenets of conventional beekeeping, and dares to suggest it's good to put the bees first.
As to shrilling that it's "trolling" misunderstands what "trolling" actually is - a troll post is essentially mischievous or vindictive, and aims to elicit angry responses as a means of causing dissent on a forum, what I see is a genuine attempt by someone to put over sincerely held views.
Now you may disagree with those views, you may disagree with the way in which they are put over - you may object to the illustrations or the choice of font, but if beekeeping is to ever progress, we need to talk, not erect barriers!
And before the usual suspects "start", I don't know Heidi, nor her organisation, but I'd be very happy to meet and talk with the good lady - from what I've gleaned, we have a lot in common, but there are several aspects I'd like to discuss with her as we would appear to differ on some points..........

 

[Chris Luck]

Isnt that what EVERY beekeeper does?. We all allow them to express their instincts, but most beekeepers then channel and manage that instinct rather than allow swarms to emminate forth every couple of days creating havoc in built up areas.

No it clearly isn't as far as I can see. What I see is a lot of interference, manipulation, continuous opening of hives and removing frames and generally messing about with the natural course of events. Equally my hives do not emanate forth swarms every couple of days, they usually swarm once in May, very occasionally one will follow with an after-swarm within a couple of weeks.

Needless to say, if any of my swarms escape then other bee keepers are welcome to them, that's what it's all about - helping bees increase their numbers.

Chris

 

[Queens59]

I am afraid this gets me a bit annoyed. I am a newbee - and I respect more experienced beeks, the books, the methods and the evolving history of beekeeping. Science has come on amazingly and I don't think there is a single beekeeper who doesn't try to do their best for their bees.

Then other newbees come along any say ' You are all wrong, I have thought about this for 5 minutes and you all need to believe the same as me, you are cruel, heartless villains'.

We LOVE bees, we CARE about the bees, are FASCINATED by them, and get (hopefully) the odd jar of honey - that doesn't make us monsters.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Exactly, we all love our bee's......i love them to bits,have done since i was 7 years old.

 

[Brosville]

Sorry, I really can't find this reference anywhere to "cruel, heartless villains" - could someone kindly point it out?

 

[Queens59]

Sorry, I really can't find this reference anywhere to "cruel, heartless villains" - could someone kindly point it out?

It is the attitude, NOT a direct quote.

 

[Chris Luck]

It is the attitude, NOT a direct quote.

That's all right then, as long as it's only imagined and no ones actually said it. Come on, this isn't the way to discuss the issue or present your methods and the reasoning behind them in an honest and frank manner like adults - we are all adults aren't we?

I reiterate, I keep my bees with the minimum of interference, no chemicals and allow them to behave as close to how they would if they were "feral" and it really works. I have no reason to lie, far from it, as a naturalist involved in many areas of recording and protection in France my reputation would be worth nothing if I distorted the truth. Meanwhile around me I see other bee keepers that use other methods and they have problems with their bees and often a high loss rate. Inevitably it must lead to questioning exactly what is going on with bees and apparent population problems, which in turn should lead to looking everywhere including, for example, could it be that some bee colonies have weak immune systems, could it be that by keep opening hives stress is caused which is well known in other species, (including humans), for having a detrimental effect on immune systems? Perhaps there are many different factors but we certainly shouldn't overlook the fact that we may be playing a part in it - that would be arrogant in the extreme.

Chris

 

[victor meldrew]

It is the attitude, NOT a direct quote.

Brossy doesn't mind the odd misqoute in his text

John Wilkinson

 

[Chris B]

exactly what is going on with bees and apparent population problems

I don't know about France, but here the bee population has doubled in the last couple of years. Even the BBKA are admitting it now. And we have "conventional" methods to thank for it.