Bald Brood

[JCBrum]

Most interesting Bcrazy.

Is there any (scientific) proof of Mr Winston's account ?

I assume you are referring to Mark L Winston ( I don't know Mark I Winston ), who was after all a consultant and contributor to the television programme "The X-files" ?

 

[OXFORDBEE]

The egg sags during the approximately 3 day period before hatching into larval stage
What do you mean by this?

 

[MJBee]

A new laid egg is vertical to the bottom of the cell, just before hatching it has "sagged " over and is almost horizontal to the cell bottom.
Mike

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Not conviced on that one... I've read some papers on this one but to cut a long story short....

Hopefully you don't mean the bit in red on this page .... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/eggdevelop.html

 

[Bcrazy]

Hi JCBrum

Yes your correct it should have read Mark L Winston.

OXFORDBEE

The egg sags as the following is happening;
Once the egg is laid the interior consists of the egg cytoplasm and the nutritive material derived from the nurse cells in the ovary. The egg within the chorion is invested in a delicate vitelline membrane. Just within the membrane is a peripheral cortical layer of cytoplasm. The egg nucleus is contained in a small cytoplasmic body near the anterior of the egg.

Development begins with the division of the nucleus and the resulting nuclei. The cleavage cells thus formed migrate out into the cortical cytoplasm, where they form a layer of cells on the surface of the egg.

Internally what happens is cleavage cells begin to expand, causing the blasterderm to form around the egg. The formation of the larvae is now being produced to form the young embryo.

That about sums up what happens during the first three days of the egg turning into an embryo.

Hope that has explained a little why the egg sags and forms as the begining of life of the bee.

Regards;

Have just read the comments by Dave Chusman and its basically what I have explained.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Thats useful ... it's not the egg going from vertical to horizontal over 3 days thingy.

Sag can mean different things depending on what you've read!

 

[Bcrazy]

Hi mikethebee

Not quite 3 sheets to the wind eh?

Would you care to comment on what I have written regarding the capping of larvae cells?

Regards;

 

[mikethebee]

Now now Bcrazy I don’t need a straight jacket just yet.
I have just got in.---- I have copied and pasted as below.

The larvae remain curled up in the bottom of their cells for four to six days, feeding on secretions deposited there by the nurse bees. YES
After this feeding period, the adult workers cap the cell with wax, I don’t believe NO and the larvae uncurl,YES stretch out fully in their cells and spin a cocoon.YES then caps the cell.
The pupa is the last stage before the final moult to the adult, YES during which the developing bee completes its metamorphosis,YES the young bee will chew her way through the cell capping and emerges YES

At this point the larvae are sealed in their cells with wax cappings constructed by adult workers, NO sometimes with a little food, which may or may not be eaten.

Have anybody ever seen the workers forming the capping over the brood????
1 The capping of the honey is made by the worker bees it’s flat and turns a golden brown.
2 The capping from the larvae is made from waste desiccate food from inside the cell causing a dome by being pushed up from inside the cell?
Some deformed cells are extra ordinary large domes and can only be made from pushing up from inside the cell?

Take a sharp pointed needle and scrap off the top of a dome brood cell hard and reinforced with silk
Now try a honey capping cell completely different soft and easy to brake.

All the best mike

 

[mikethebee]

plus you have copyed cut and pasted from others work
From the Biology of the Honey Bee by Mark l. Winston.

thats easy Bcrazy!

I ask you to to think about it.
ever seen a dome created from outside??
all the best mike

 

[Bcrazy]

Hi mikethebee,

I have read and reread your reply, thank you.

plus you have copyed cut and pasted from others work
From the Biology of the Honey Bee by Mark l. Winston.

thats easy Bcrazy!

I was trying to show you what Mark L Winston, who is a Professor of Biological Sciences has to say regarding cappings.

So you are saying that the drone larvae also produces the capping over their cells? Come on be realistic.

I will still have to disagree with you on this topic of brood capping's.

Without reference to any publication I believe that the workers produce a mixture of pollen and wax which provides the necessary porosity for the larvae to breath during the confinement in its cell. As pollen is used it helps the imago to chew the capping's prior to emerging as an adult bee. The cappins are normally coffee coloured with a matt finish which is very different from the wax cappings on stored honey.

Mike what about a poll to see what other beekeepers thoughts are concerning brood cappings?

Admin if Mike is for a poll would you be able to set one up for the forum?

Regards;

 

[oliver90owner]

Poll

Please don't be wasting time and demonstrating further the un-read or silly ideas that even some in the beekeeping industry have.

If he is not extracting urine, leave him to pickle in/on his own! Omlette readers, amongst others, will be having a laugh on a topic which is cut and dried.

Larvae are simply food machines in a race to transfer from an egg (from the queen) to the adult stage as quickly as possible. Nothing else, really. The adult stage has the wax secreting and manipulating kit and it takes days for 1000s of them to sort out some new comb - along with a huge amount of energy (embedded in the wax and for the 'bee-hours'. The larvae have enough to do to be 'concentrating ' on the metamorphosis stage of their development.

If this question had been asked by a new beekeeper and two different answers were given like that, it would not be long before someone was quoting from the literature. MTB would, I believe, be using a parchment or tablet. Ha Ha.

Regards, RAB

 

[OXFORDBEE]

For all of you confused about what happens when a honey bee egg hatches have a look at this:

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/conducta/postura_variacion_tiempo_apis_mellifera.pdf

 

[mikethebee]

HI Bcrazy! I will go with the flo

Without reference to any publication.---> I just have!! Its wheather you all can get yer head round it coming from a silly old bugger like me without taking the piss.
I have been a forty year old beekeeper and still class myself as a commercial novice with a little No-how, So I think I might be entitled to give my views right or wrong.

The cappins are normally coffee coloured with a matt finish which is very different from the wax cappings on stored honey. Thank you WHY
Bcrazy! To tell you the truth I don’t think there is any publication on this subject.

OXFORDBEE very interesting!! But the subject was why bold brood?
all the best mike

 

[Bcrazy]

Hi mikethebee,

So I think I might be entitled to give my views right or wrong.

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion on any subject, and in my mind we should respect the opinion of others as it's their belief of the subject.

We both know why the cell cappings are different and the composition of the cappings are not the same, for obvious reasons.

Nice chatting to you mike.

Regards;

 

[OXFORDBEE]

OXFORDBEE very interesting!! But the subject was why bold brood?
all the best mike

Wasn't me that originally deviated into developmental biology mate!

 

[Gaz Fella]

Baldbrood:: Well, I thought....

I thought current theory is that wholly or partially uncapped brood was part of an investigation process by the workers into perceived oddness within the cell. Somehow the worker detects something amiss [smells change, vibration change??] which leads the worker to believe the cell content needs clearing out ... but on wholly, or partly, uncapping the cell, it finds all to be well [or , at least, is led to believe all is well-ish] so leaves the content to continue development - which in many cases it does. Sometimes the worker seems to be "conned" and leaves dodgy content for a while longer before having a go at cleaning out ... sac brood seems to achieve this, at least for a while, for example.

 

[FROGDOGDIVER]

This was originally my post as I was looking for help and advice. Thanks to those who did that. I really hate though when posts end up so off topic they end up in Iceland instead of Ipswich. Pardon the reference if you live there.

Wee all love bees so can we not all get along and play nicely. Life is far too short.



Yup I like pigs too.....

 

[mikethebee]

FROGDOGDIVER again in answer to your question
Due to bad weather!! The larvae has not had enough food to finish off capping the cell. Tell me if I be wrong???

Now we will have some bad language, and I will be called all sorts of tings

All the best mike

 

[Hombre]

Hi mikethebee

The larvae has not had enough food to finish off capping the cell. Tell me if I be wrong???

Mike your wrong!

The nurse bees produce the wax cappings to seal the larvae in the cell, how on earth can a larvae produce wax?

Regards;
__________________
Bcrazy

Well, was this the point at which the train actually left the rails?

I believe that Mike would describe himself as a BF and probably doesn't care if you don't necessarily believe this to mean Bee Farmer.

An analogy is called for:
Given that a packing case can be closed only once, why should it be closed before the intended contents have become available and included within the case?

Would you really expect the contents of the packing case to screw it down for you, or suggest that was what was actually said?

From the above quotes, It is clear that BCrazy introduced the question, "How on earth can a larvae produce wax"?
I was always told that if you ask a daft question, you would be very likely to get a daft answer!

Obviously some people subscribe to the theory that there is no such thing as a daft question. Can I suggest that that theory has just been brought into doubt (I didn't say disproved) and has provided Mike with lots of sport.

The Larvae were the subject of the original sentence, but most rational Beekeepers would subscribe to the unheralded inference that it was nurse bees that were responsible for closure of the cells. They, the bees, wouldn't do that if the feeding job wasn't complete because of lack of income due to bad weather. With such an interruption, the bees have probably and instinctively resumed elsewhere when conditions improved; the imperatives having changed.

Would you continue packing if you were reliably informed that your trip was canceled?
Apparently also, the incomplete cells were subsequently cleared out. Probably by bees responsible for unpacking operations.

I must confess that I don't really know though but it does appear to fit. It wasn't a bee question after all, it was one of English comprehension. Drat, didn't do that module

Mike would prefer you to put a whiskey into his hand or money into his pocket rather than words into his mouth.

And it's still raining outside.

Frogdogdiver, I hope that this put Mike's answer into better context for you.
Mike, I hope my analysis was accurate - on several counts.
BC " ".

 

[mikethebee]

Hombre thanks for your interest after reading your post I packed me bags went to pub.

Hi Bcrazy I gave Greg Rasmussen Director Zoologist the job of fact finding for me he has the labor to watch paint dry. He originally thought it was the nurse bees.
BUT after I explained my view he decided it was worth investigating.

As he said these things been written down years ago but never verified and things don’t add up.
It will take a week or threes as he’s off to south Africa beekeeping.