Asian Hornets...

[Karol]

So should we just abandon this discussion on taking precautions and move on to other subjects?

I have the greatest respect for you, Mr Karol - and everybody else here, but I do seem to remember a certain Prime-minister returning from Munich and waving a piece of paper. He too said "Nothing was going to happen!"

I would much rather have a factory full of fire extinguishers and NO fire - than a factory on fire with no extinguishers.

As in Scouting - Be Prepared!

just my two pennyworth.

Malcolm B.

Why would you extrapolate my comments as an argument to do nothing?!

Just because it is highly unlikely Velutina will establish itself in the UK doesn't mean to say that where incursions occur they shouldn't be dealt with.

However, inciting mass panic has other consequences arising from the needless miss direction of scant resources so a little more rational reflection on risk vs effort seems like common sense.

As for not doing anything then I've spent quite a bit of time/effort assisting colleagues in Europe with strategies and tools for dealing with Velutina. If beekeepers were to collectively deploy fipronil custard then I'm confident that Velutina could be eradicated in large part which would reduce the threat of incursions into the UK and elsewhere. That strategy however requires a significant proportion of beekeepers to participate in order for it to work.

 

[ericbeaumont]

requires a significant proportion of beekeepers

Plus a change in the law?

 

[Sutty]

Plus a change in the law?

Not necessarily in other countries, but in ours probably, unless you could design a system where you don't actually catch them but can apply custard in which case the ban on releasing them wouldn't apply. Not sure if it would break other regulations re pesticides though.

 

[Karol]

Not necessarily in other countries, but in ours probably, unless you could design a system where you don't actually catch them but can apply custard in which case the ban on releasing them wouldn't apply. Not sure if it would break other regulations re pesticides though.

Two things.

Firstly the custard has to be applied to the top rear of the thorax so the vector doesn't directly consume the custard itself. This is so the vector makes it back to the nest where its nest mates preen the custard off. Being resident nest mates they share the custard with the queen through trophallaxis ergo job done and the colony collapses. I would not advocate a device for automating the application of the custard because that would be irresponsible for the lack of control over the pesticide.

Secondly define release? I would argue that release only applies to sexually competent castes not workers and given the vector will still die from the process it hasn't been released from its fate.

 

[Malcolm B.]

Why would you extrapolate my comments as an argument to do nothing?!

I didn't!
It was simply a rhetorical statement satirically suggesting an extreme, unviable alternative.

Just because it is highly unlikely Velutina will establish itself in the UK - - - - - -

Erm, isn't this a repeat?
Why can't we qualify this statement a little better? - e.g. from studies so far ~~ at~~~ by~~~ it appears that because ~~~Velutina may find it difficult to become properly established in the UK under present climatic conditions.

However, inciting mass panic has other consequences arising from the needless miss direction of scant resources so a little more rational reflection on risk vs effort seems like common sense.

In the short time I've been a member of this illustrious Forum, and the great many threads I have viewed, I don't believe I have seen ANYTHING resembling mass panic. . . . Mass lethargy. maybe?

As for not doing anything then I've spent quite a bit of time/effort assisting colleagues in Europe with strategies and tools for dealing with Velutina.

Perhaps you missed my comment >> I have the greatest respect for you, Mr Karol - and everybody else here <<
One frequently never really knows the character behind a screen name, or, quite often their skills. - or the very valuable work they may be doing behind the scenes!

Over the years I have found it far more productive to simply question a statement than to just contradict it.
Another quirk I have learned is that Fact sometimes contradicts Theory.
As in Scouting, and in life - Always be prepared for the unlikely.

Kind regards to you.

Malcolm B.

 

[fian]

Two things.

Firstly the custard has to be applied to the top rear of the thorax so the vector doesn't directly consume the custard itself. This is so the vector makes it back to the nest where its nest mates preen the custard off. Being resident nest mates they share the custard with the queen through trophallaxis ergo job done and the colony collapses. I would not advocate a device for automating the application of the custard because that would be irresponsible for the lack of control over the pesticide.

Secondly define release? I would argue that release only applies to sexually competent castes not workers and given the vector will still die from the process it hasn't been released from its fate.

If a bee leaves the colony when it is going to die, what makes you think that a velutina does not do the same?
If, on the other hand, the best thing is to leave fipronil residues all over the fields and then we are surprised that things like the ones in the news happen.
https://www.sudinfo.be/id7702/artic...urs-de-chickfriend-arretes-aux-pays-bas-suite

 

[Sutty]

I would not advocate a device for automating the application of the custard because that would be irresponsible for the lack of control over the pesticide.

Presumably that would depend on specificity and accuracy?
While I accept it would be hard to accomplish it might not be impossible.
Eg a flat plate that is baited over which is an AI powered hornet recognition device linked to an positionable applicator akin to an upscaled inkjet printer head. Probably currently far fetched, but possibly not before long.
Slower acting poisons eg insect growth inhibitors or chitin synthetase inhibitors (eg lufenuron) might be easier & more flexible to apply, and allow simpler systems.

 

[Karol]

Presumably that would depend on specificity and accuracy?
While I accept it would be hard to accomplish it might not be impossible.
Eg a flat plate that is baited over which is an AI powered hornet recognition device linked to an positionable applicator akin to an upscaled inkjet printer head. Probably currently far fetched, but possibly not before long.
Slower acting poisons eg insect growth inhibitors or chitin synthetase inhibitors (eg lufenuron) might be easier & more flexible to apply, and allow simpler systems.

Great to engage in some blue sky thinking. I looked very hard at the feasibility of just such a device but there were simply too many obstacles to overcome with potentially catastrophic environmental consequences.

Take specificity for example. How would you prevent non target species from entering the device and not migrating the pesticide to non target sites. Even if you could use AI, all it would take is a leaky print head or slight residues on the print head after printing. It's one thing to catch the odd honeybee in a wasp trap but imagine a honeybee getting into just such a device and porting fipronil back to the hive. Doesn't bear thinking about.

The problem with slow acting poisons is that they are slow acting with comparatively long half lives. The great thing about fipronil custard is that the fipronil is inactivated by the formulation within a matter of hours. Just enough time for the vector to get back to the nest in Trojan fashion to kill the queen before the fipronil degrades and stops working. A quick collapse of the colony is essential and this will only be achieved by promptly knocking off the queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If a bee leaves the colony when it is going to die

does it?

 

[fian]

does it?

At the moment this is interpreted in the light of the analysis.
https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/sick-bees-buzz-greater-good-hive-6c10658000

 

[Sutty]

At the moment this is interpreted in the light of the analysis.
https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/sick-bees-buzz-greater-good-hive-6c10658000

All that article seems to show is that bees can leave a hive. Followed by a load of supposition.

 

[Sutty]

If a bee leaves the colony when it is going to die, what makes you think that a velutina does not do the same?
If, on the other hand, the best thing is to leave fipronil residues all over the fields and then we are surprised that things like the ones in the news happen.
https://www.sudinfo.be/id7702/artic...urs-de-chickfriend-arretes-aux-pays-bas-suite

The fipronil contamination of eggs is vastly more likely to be due to the illegal use of pesticides to treat eg redmite (dermanyssus gallinae) in chicken flocks. The mite is a huge problem.

 

[fian]

All that article seems to show is that bees can leave a hive. Followed by a load of supposition.

If a bee can leave the colony, why couldn't a velutina do it?
When I started posting in this forum, I was accused of reviewing the established principles and now the roles have changed?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

At the moment this is interpreted in the light of the analysis.
https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/sick-bees-buzz-greater-good-hive-6c10658000

so no real evidence to support your claim then just surmise based on the 'sudden colony collapse' myth which only happens in the USA
After witnessing mortuary bees carry out dead bees from the hive and dumping them outside (in piles just below the hive entrance during a heavy flow) I would say that it is more wishful thinking than science

 

[fian]

The fipronil contamination of eggs is vastly more likely to be due to the illegal use of pesticides to treat eg redmite (dermanyssus gallinae) in chicken flocks. The mite is a huge problem.

The problem is that fipronil has a degradability problem. If you have a dog or cat, you will know that the effect of fipronil lasts 4 to 5 weeks. It is true that it can end up with a velutin nest but who knows what happens to its remains during that period.
Bioaccumulation problems have also been reported in its use as a pesticide in agricultural monocultures.
Finally, last year I melted some honeycombs to extract wax, I left the remains near where I have the warehouse, as I saw that the velutinas approached them and took remains, I decided to fumigate with a little spray insecticide. As a result, there was no second wave of velutinas in those remains, but its incidence in the apiary was not mitigated. With this I want to show that there will not be a second wave of velutinas on a poisoned bait.

 

[Malcolm B.]

The fipronil contamination of eggs is vastly more likely to be due to the illegal use of pesticides to treat eg redmite (dermanyssus gallinae) in chicken flocks. The mite is a huge problem.

I have found that regular dusting with diatomaceous earth around all the little nooks and crannies they like to hide in is good at keeping them under control. The D.E. particles I understand, cuts and damages the mite. Also, the huts get regular cleaning and then a soaking with a strong chlorine solution before washing off.

 

[fian]

At the moment there is no real evidence, but all the demonstrations seem to corroborate that I am on the right path, or at least, that is what the article says. At the moment, bees have been on the evolutionary clock for millions of years more than we have.

so no real evidence to support your claim then just surmise based on the 'sudden colony collapse' myth which only happens in the USA
After witnessing mortuary bees carry out dead bees from the hive and dumping them outside (in piles just below the hive entrance during a heavy flow) I would say that it is more wishful thinking than science

 

[Sutty]

At the moment there is no real evidence, but all the demonstrations seem to corroborate that I am on the right path, or at least, that is what the article says. At the moment, bees have been on the evolutionary clock for millions of years more than we have.

The article says almost nothing

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I have found that regular dusting with diatomaceous earth around all the little nooks and crannies they like to hide in is good at keeping them under control. The D.E. particles I understand, cuts and damages the mite. Also, the huts get regular cleaning and then a soaking with a strong chlorine solution before washing off.

Does red mite succumb to OA sublimation?

 

[Sutty]

Does red mite succumb to OA sublimation?

I don't think it would get into the crevices they hide in when not feeding on the birds. I could try painting likely crevices with a solution & let it dry.