AS question

[Stoney147]

Hi all , did an artifical swarm yesterday but didn't move parent colony first, so queen is not in original position, but the rest was complete as usual.What would be my option now? Go and swap hives around ???
Thanks

 

[itma]

Hi all , did an artifical swarm yesterday but didn't move parent colony first, so queen is not in original position, but the rest was complete as usual.What would be my option now? Go and swap hives around ???
Thanks

Not at all clear as to what you have done.

What is now in the original position? // Hive contents, not the actual boxes, is what matters.
And what is now in the new position?

 

[Stoney147]

On inspection I found charged queen cells so I set up a new hive and placed queen in with a frame of brood and a frame of stores, and in the parent colony (original position) reduced to one queen cell with I larva of about 6 days old.and closed up. I realise this is not a proper artifical swarm but I'm used to using nucleus hives for swarm prevention.

 

[itma]

So, you've done a "nuc method" swarm control - just that you've put Q and minimal colony into a larger hive than optimal…
The "nuc method" is supposed to maximise the colony's production, and help avoid making increase (old Q getting terminated after new Q is into her stride).


Apart from putting the old Q and retinue into a more appropriate-sized hive (or dummying them down), I don't think there's any need to go moving things around. Unless you were wanting to make increase …

 

[Finman]

Hi all , did an artifical swarm yesterday but didn't move parent colony first, so queen is not in original position,

Actually you did not AS or swarming control, if the old hive is in old site. Only queen is moved to a nuc.

You must do AS, if you are going to cut swarming fever.

Make a Foundation hive in old site and put the queen in it.

.

 

[Stoney147]

Thanks for your replies. When a colony does swarm and the queen leaves what are you left with?half the number of bees and queen cells in the original hive location, just like what I've got...
I'm not disagreeing with you i would like to hear about the swarm fever.

 

[oliver90owner]

Question: Were you left with half the bees?

No? Then not simulating a swarm, is it? Not what you have got? You cannot have your cake and eat it. One or the other! Make your mind up.

 

[enigmatica]

Stoney, please keep us informed. I'm a complete beginner and as green as grass but I think the bees will tell you soon if you were right.

 

[Finman]

Stoney, please keep us informed. I'm a complete beginner and as green as grass but I think the bees will tell you soon if you were right.

It is late if bees tell it second time.
It is quite clear what bees are doing if they have queen cells. They have told allready.

 

[itma]

The essence of swarm control (after charged QCs have been found) is to separate one out of the three: flying bees, brood and Q.
So you have three possibilities.
However (Q+brood) & (flying bees) leaves one side Q-, so you have to give the flying bees something more {new Q, frame of eggs+open brood, QC …?}
The usual AS is (Q+flying bees) & (brood - with nurse bees & QC).
But (flying bees + brood - with QC) & (Q with small retinue) also works. It is actually called "the nucleus method".

Using the nuc method, the essential thing is to avoid casting (losing swarms headed by Virgin Qs) which WILL happen if you allow excessive QCs to be built.
Simple thing is to just leave ONE chosen QC. If it fails, you still have the old Q to reunite with (thats why you kept her in the nuc rather than terminating her at the outset!) I'm prepared to be a little bolder, leaving two similar age cells that are close to one another (same or adjacent comb face) to maximise the chance that, if they both develop, they will find each other and sort things out (hopefully before number two even emerges).
But you DO need to cull ALL the excess QCs.

Dave Cushman's site spells out the nuc method http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

 

[Stoney147]

When is the best time to cull all emergency queen cells, I AS'd Saturday and the larva was about 3 day or 6days from laying. I'm sure I've read somewhere about two days before emergance,
Thanks once again for info it's good for us beginners

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hopefully you've made careful note of where your chosen QC is? I would go in after 6 days to knock off any new ones (sometimes I'll have a quick look after 3 as well

 

[itma]

When is the best time to cull all emergency queen cells, I AS'd Saturday and the larva was about 3 day or 6days from laying. I'm sure I've read somewhere about two days before emergance,
Thanks once again for info it's good for us beginners

If your chosen QC is not yet sealed (that's definitely best), then you should have more than 8 days before Q emerges and you start to leave strictly alone for mating flights. /// Late clarification - you should be choosing a cell that is big and well-filled, looking just about ready for capping, so you ain't got much more than 8 days...
Ideally, you should be going in after 7 or 8 days (ie as late as possible before the chosen princess emerges). (7 is the same day of the week as you started, so should work for the beekeeper.)
Why 7?
Well there's no Q in there, so no new eggs.
After 7 days, the last egg that Q laid will be a 4 day old larva (having spent 3 days as an egg).
Everything else will be older.
So, if you eliminate all other QCs on day 7, that means that the best the bees could start a new cell with would be a 4 day old larva. However, with your chosen cell due to emerge in only another day or so, they shouldn't bother with that pretty futile exercise. A 5 day old larva (day 8) is never going to become an emergency QC, but day 8 is awful close to princess emergence from your chosen cell.

If you are keeping one of the original QCs, there is no point in any other cull than that late-as-possible one.

It is however different if you are playing at serious Q rearing and need to know the cell age more precisely - and only want a new Q that has been fed since larva day 1 with Royal Jelly. That's where a day 4 QC selection and knockdown (of absolutely all sealed cells and all unchosen open ones) is needed, followed 8 days later by a cull of any others that have been subsequently started as emergency cells from older larvae.

Queen Cells present one occasion where you MUST inspect at the correct time - regardless of the weather and everything else.



Don't shake or bump frames with chosen QCs. But do brush the bees off that frame to reveal any other QCs.
Very important to mark that frame so you can be specially careful around it.
But ALL other brood frames NEED to be shaken clear of bees to allow you to see and cull ALL the unwanted QCs.
Eliminate ALL the other QCs and thereby avoid surprises.

 

[meidel]

It is however different if you are playing at serious Q rearing and need to know the cell age more precisely - and only want a new Q that has been fed since larva day 1 with Royal Jelly.

I thought all larvae are fed royal jelly from day 1 to day 3? So even if QCs are made from 3 day old larvae, they should be alright? Do you know whether the bees would raise a queen from larvae older than 3 days? In that case these shouldn't be any good...

 

[Sammo]

itma,

Thanks for sharing this information on the nuc method of swarm control. Very useful to know.