Artificial swarm does it work

[Finman]

When bee inspector had me separate queen from foragers practically the whole forum criticized and said my colony would be destroyed.

Demaree found out 130 y ago that separate queen and brood.

That is Basic fact about swarming control.

MAAREC is a consortion of 6 universities.

https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf

• Separation of Queen from the Brood - Separation of
queen from brood, or Demareeing, is probably the most
widely used swarm control practice and is the easiest
and most successful method in use today to control
swarming. A large number of variations exist and
almost all recent articles in the literature on swarming
utilize the same basic principle of queen and brood
separation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When bee inspector had me separate queen from foragers practically the whole forum criticized and said my colony would be destroyed. What is the difference between this and what I did? I put queen with brood and food on new stand and left foragers brood and food on a original site.
Well confused now.
Obee

Because what she was having you do was splitting a strong colony too early in the season. Look what's happened to the weather now, and why split a colony just because it's strong? What we are talking about here is managing a colony intent on swarming so that we don't lose the bees.

 

[Finman]

.
Australian swarming control letter
http://www.theabk.com.au/article/swarming-control-and-management

 

[B+.]

Well confused now.
Obee

I'm sorry Obee, I'm not sure I saw your post or, if I did, I didn't appreciate what you were saying.

If the colony was preparing to swarm and you gave them a frame of eggs/very young brood, then I would say there is no difference. If they didn't have a frame of eggs/larvae and it was done at the wrong time of year (i.e. outside of the swarming period), then I'm not sure what the intention was.

Bee inspectors generally know what they are talking about. I would suggest you follow their advice unless you have a very good reason not to. Part of their remit is educational, so, I am sure the bee inspector wouldn't mind explaining his recommendations to you.

 

[B+.]

• Separation of Queen from the Brood - Separation of
queen from brood, or Demareeing, is probably the most
widely used swarm control practice and is the easiest
and most successful method in use today to control
swarming. .

In the method we are discussing, the queen is not separated from the brood...a single frame of eggs/larvae is used to keep the flying bees content

 

[Finman]

When bee inspector had me separate queen from foragers practically the whole forum criticized and said my colony would be destroyed.
Obee

Yes, we did. But your hives was not going to swarm yet.
Your advisor gove bad advices.

Too early splitting is succesfull in swarming because hives parts will be too weak to swarm. That means too, that build up is seriously stopped. And there are hives, which are not going to swarm. Vain prevention then.

 

[boca]

In my first year it happend to me that the q+ swarm wanted to leave 1-2 days after AS.
Actually they have not swarmed. They absconded.
We know that their treasure (brood and stores) is safe in another box, but all they feel is that they were robbed while they were out foraging. A predator take everything they had. Fortunately they have the queen, so it is better to rebuild the new nest in a safer place.

In addition to the brood frame and queen, I recommend to leave 1 or 2 frames of honey.

 

[Finman]

In the method we are discussing, the queen is not separated from the brood...a single frame of eggs/larvae is used to keep the flying bees content

Don't be serious. .... If queen is clipped and it has been vanished, you have only way to use queen cells. If you have queen cells in the hive, why you start to rear emergency cells?

You arrange emergency cells, and I have not met that kind of method. That takes lots of time. If it is nectar flow on, you loose quite much yield.

Every variation is not a method.

As I have told, if bee strain is mad to swarm, AS does not work very well.
But when you breed non swarming stocks, you do not need double sure AS methods.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Here is Finnish AS advice
The menthor has 1500 hives.

http://mehilaishoitajat-fi-bin.dire...lication/pdf/633715/parveilun esto-ohjeet.pdf

He advices 3 ways ............(so shortly that few can understand)

You may use in swarm part

- queen
- queen cells
- larva frame

Larva frame gives 10 days time before AS can try swarming. So it is obliged to stay in the hive.

If queen is clipped, it cannot escape either.

If AS has queen cell, bees can contiunue emergency cell rearing and swarm can leave with emerged queen cell.

If you use ready combs in AS, often the gang contiues its swarming fever.


So it depends how much you have hives, and how sure method you are going to use.

But you have still the brood part, where is queen cell or more.

.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

In my first year it happend to me that the q+ swarm wanted to leave 1-2 days after AS.

Actually they have not swarmed. They absconded.

We know that their treasure (brood and stores) is safe in another box, but all they feel is that they were robbed while they were out foraging. A predator take everything they had. Fortunately they have the queen, so it is better to rebuild the new nest in a safer place.



In addition to the brood frame and queen, I recommend to leave 1 or 2 frames of honey.

Interesting way of looking at it.

 

[Madge]

That is not good advice.

From one of your earlier posts in this threat I now know that you think a frame of brood is essential for the queen mother's AS colony to feel happy and content and to prevent the flyers from seeking and returning to the brood nest. Good points, but it might not have stopped the swarming impulse, and that's what we're talking about.

It would have helped if you've added all that information to the above bland statement. An explanation is always helpful.

Not leaving brood in the queen mother's box was advice given to me by one of Britain's most well-respected and well-known beekeepers and as I've said earlier, it's worked for me so far.

The reason for that approach is that a swarm do not expect to find brood in their new home - so finding brood there might make them happy, but it might also be less likely to stop the swarming urge.

 

[snelgrove]

I agree with the sensible ones. It does work.

Just follow the well tried and tested Pagden method - or do you really think you are the first to 'discover' it doesn't work, after all these years? All the rest, who have relied on it for the last umpteen years, are wrong?

I think we have a case, here, of 'get real'.

I have kept bees for umpteen years and the AS has failed umpteen times, if the for said method was tested then I wonder why there is so many alternatives . Obviously from the comments on this thread I am not the only one to discover that it dosnt work. Oh an by the way I am sensible and real.

 

[B+.]

Don't be serious. .... If queen is clipped and it has been vanished, you have only way to use queen cells. If you have queen cells in the hive, why you start to rear emergency cells?

You arrange emergency cells, and I have not met that kind of method. That takes lots of time. If it is nectar flow on, you loose quite much yield.

Every variation is not a method.

As I have told, if bee strain is mad to swarm, AS does not work very well.
But when you breed non swarming stocks, you do not need double sure AS methods.

.

I'm sorry Finman but that is nonsense. I keep trying to explain that its a simple process and takes hardly any time at all. You don't have to find the queen...just a frame of eggs/larvae....even a beginner can do that. You should be an advocate instead of criticising.
I don't think you understand that the box with the frame of eggs/larvae is queenless. Its purpose is to extinguish the swarming impulse. You keep saying it has a queen, but it doesn't. Thats why they produce emergency cells and you remove them every 9/10 days...there is one frame to inspect. That is all! You don't lose any yield. That is the point!
You are hung up about this idea that the queen is clipped...she isn't even in the box. She is still in the parent colony. How can you not understand this?

 

[Hivemaker.]

The reason for that approach is that a swarm do not expect to find brood in their new home - so finding brood there might make them happy, but it might also be less likely to stop the swarming urge.

I do it much the same way for the reason you state, only difference is i first put one of the supers containing stores on the floor, then a queen excluder, then brood box containing a couple of drawn combs (no brood)... a shake of young bees and the queen, the rest of the box contains frames of foundation, i find they draw nice combs much faster and right to the bottom bars doing it this way.

 

[Excession]

Is it just me, or is the AS being made overly complicated here?

In an AS you want the same result as a swarm.

Old queen and flying bees in a new box.

Brood, nurse bees and stores in the old box, with one good queen cell.

It is really easy to achieve this and stops swarming.
(Remembering to check the old hive for more QC's a couple of days later)

What's the problem? What am I missing?!

 

[snelgrove]

Is it just me, or is the AS being made overly complicated here?

In an AS you want the same result as a swarm.

Old queen and flying bees in a new box.

Brood, nurse bees and stores in the old box, with one good queen cell.

It is really easy to achieve this and stops swarming.
(Remembering to check the old hive for more QC's a couple of days later)

What's the problem? What am I missing?!

Your missing that the bees and old queen construct queen cells and swarm. It dosnt stop swarming

 

[Finman]

You are hung up about this idea that the queen is clipped...she isn't even in the box. She is still in the parent colony. How can you not understand this?

I can understand, because

- often there are no clipped queen in the hive because it has died into lawn.

- Seconds reason is that you do not clip queen.

- Third reason is that you have not put it into the box.

- She is in parent colony because you let it be there.

 

[B+.]

What's the problem? What am I missing?!

If you want to split the colony, nothing at all. However, if you want to maintain the colony so it continues to function as a cohesive unit, see my post above

 

[Hivemaker.]

Your missing that the bees and old queen construct queen cells and swarm. It dosnt stop swarming

If the queen has reduced laying and slimmed down for flying then i much prefer the reverse A/S, or removal to a nuc for a while, in both she is very soon fattened up again for laying.

 

[snelgrove]

If the queen has reduced laying and slimmed down for flying then i much prefer the reverse A/S, or removal to a nuc for a while, in both she is very soon fattened up again for laying.

If the queen is slimmed down then you have more of a chance with any method. I have started something here Lol . I think that any method of swarm control should result in a new mated queen.