Are they crying out for space

[beenovice]

About 10 days ago, the weather was beautiful, so I had a quick look. There didn't seem to be a lot of space due to the abundance of stores. During the look I noticed brace comb running from every frame up to the crown board. This comb had stores (honey or syrup) in it. Lifting the crown board obviously broke all this brace comb.
I spent a couple of minutes cleaning the top of each frame and the crown board.
7 days later I had another quick look. They had rebuilt all of this brace comb, but interestingly it was all full of stores again (Honey or syrup). I am assuming that this has been moved from elsewhere in the brood (National)? Is this an indication of lack of space? Would you super to give them somewhere to put the stores and hence create laying space? I have a complete cover of 50mm kingspan so I doubt adding a super would cause heat loss problems.
I am reluctant to take a frame of stores, extract and replace, because I would like to keep the frame of stores for later in the year. I don't have any other drawn brood frames (only supers).

 

[Tom Bick]

Apart from the brace comb how many frames of bees and how many frames of brood. Also what gap have you got from top of frames to underside of crown board.

 

[oliver90owner]

I am reluctant to take a frame of stores,

But you would add a super to a colony, irrespective of size? Not necessarily a good idea, I think.

Ask yourself this: Are they building comb at the present time?

Have you thought about the bee space being incorrect?

Making assumptions rather than basing decisions on facts and observations is not a good beekeeping practice. You should have been observing the weather and hive income over these last ten days.

Seems like you should have introduced one or two foundations at that time if the colony was strong enough. Maybe the colony is weak with a lot of winter stores remaining still. Only you know that.

RAB

 

[Chris B]

Give them a super. You've correctly identified they are already telling you they need one. The bees are clearly filling the box with bees - otherwise there wouldn't be brace comb on every single frame. Forget about them not being able to keep warm. They are well able to look after themselves.

 

[beenovice]

In all honesty I didn't pull every frame out on the first visit as I was conscious it was erarly, although the weather was very good. I did pull a couple of frames out and noticed there were lots of stores, some larve, and some capped brood.
There were lots of bees all over the hive. My hive is a Thornes national. I would say that there is about 12-15mm between the tops of the frames and the underside of the crown board. This sounds like a lot now I think about it, although I am sure I put it together as per the instructions. I never noticed it as a problem last season, but I suppose I wouldn't with a queen excluder on.

 

[Tom Bick]

It sounds like you assembled your hive top bee space and as a result don't need a crown board with the frame around the edge. The problem should only exist now when you are reduced to the brood box only and again if you are slow to add more supers. You can take it as an early warning alarm that the bees are confident and willing to expand.

 

[beenovice]

I am reluctant to take a frame of stores,

But you would add a super to a colony, irrespective of size? Not necessarily a good idea, I think.

Ask yourself this: Are they building comb at the present time?

Have you thought about the bee space being incorrect?

Making assumptions rather than basing decisions on facts and observations is not a good beekeeping practice. You should have been observing the weather and hive income over these last ten days.

Seems like you should have introduced one or two foundations at that time if the colony was strong enough. Maybe the colony is weak with a lot of winter stores remaining still. Only you know that.

RAB

Thanks for the reply Oliver, but how does it help me?
Are they building comb? - Yes - How does that help me?
I have been observing the hive. Lots of pollen going in on warmer days. Water collectors on colder days.
Introduction of Foundation - I was advised this may be too late on the outer frames, and may generate drones on the edges of the brood.
I am not reluctant to remove a frame of stores. I just don't want to discard it. I want to keep it for later in the year.

 

[beenovice]

It sounds like you assembled your hive top bee space and as a result don't need a crown board with the frame around the edge. The problem should only exist now when you are reduced to the brood box only and again if you are slow to add more supers. You can take it as an early warning alarm that the bees are confident and willing to expand.

Thanks Tom,
If I have assembled incorrectly I assume I can rectify this with a couple of rails. Do you think it would be worth swapping the brood box for one that I have made, that I know has the frames flush with the top of the box. I will wait until the weather warms up a bit now, but would that just be a case of lifting each frame in order and placing into new box?

 

[Tom Bick]

With bottom bee space the top of the frames should be flush or slightly below the top of the brood box or super. With bottom bee space the top of the frames should be approx 7mm below the top of the brood box or super. Obviously all the boxes should be the same otherwise a sticky mess can be the result. It will be easy to sort out providing you can free up the box from the bees and frames. One simple mistake some people do is to forget to fit the frame runners.

Yes just transfer the frames and bees to your new box on a nice warm day and then you can alter the original box.

 

[oliver90owner]

Are they building comb? - Yes - How does that help me

Err, if they have built 15mm of comb, say 10 times, across the box in the last ten days, that might equate to 2/3 of a deep frame? A good sized nuc might do that if the weather were favourable, but I would not necessarily be expanding a nuc by adding a super over a brood box. I might be preferring them to build comb in the brood box rather than in a super.

My decision of what to do would be infuenced by me having drawn shallow frames, as well as several other factors. But I am not there, I am seeing my bees busy on a cold day today, seeing 'snail' (frosted hail, so almost snow) on the ground yesterday, a really hard frost overnight.... I might not be keen to add a super, especially if not drawn unless I was confident the colony was up to it, if the weather remains cold.

My point of supering is not with 6 frames of stores in the brood box. We don't really have any clue on the actual state of the colony apart from 'abundant stores' and they have drawn comb over the last ten days of good weather. We are just guessing, IMO. Get ig right and we can be happy; get it wrong and it is not my bees on the receiving end.

RAB

 

[Chris B]

This colony is right across the box RAB. They wouldn't build brace comb above frames they weren't occupying. beenovice has also said there were bees all over the hive, not conclusive on it's own but certainly adding weight to that deduction.

 

[itma]

... I did pull a couple of frames out and noticed there were lots of stores, some larve, and some capped brood.
...

Normally, you'd only be thinking of putting on a super once you had brood on at least six frames (and you'd expect the middle ones to be mainly brood).

If you are moving them across to a new box, you should take the opportunity to take an inventory of how much stores, how much brood and how much empty comb this colony actually has.

Two things
1/ If there is more than 4 full both sides national frames wort of stores in total. then I'd be pulling out the fullest frame you come across. I'd replace it with a foundation frame, but inserted next to the end of the brood nest (a great place to get it drawn), and as a further refinement, you could uncap some of the stores on the next frame outside the foundation frame.
You can wrap the frame thoroughly in cling film and then give it 48 hours in the freezer to kill any possible wax moth, before storing for later use.
2/ Especially if there is less than one framesworth of empty comb in total, you should keep your eyes open for the presence of queen cells ... just in case. And drone cells would be worth noting as well.

 

[pargyle]

. I would say that there is about 12-15mm between the tops of the frames and the underside of the crown board. This sounds like a lot now I think about it, although I am sure I put it together as per the instructions. I never noticed it as a problem last season, but I suppose I wouldn't with a queen excluder on.

Has your crown board got a frame on one side and not on the other ? Have you got it the right way up ... ie: with the flat side facing downwards ?

If you have an 8mm frame on one side and add that to the space you appear to have above the frames but below the level of the top of the box you could well have 15mm of space ... twice what they would like and they will fill it with brace comb given the opportunity.

 

[itma]

Has your crown board got a frame on one side and not on the other ? Have you got it the right way up ... ie: with the flat side facing downwards ?

That would only be "the right way" if the box really was mis-assembled giving top beespace.

If the frames aren't flush with the top of the box sides (or less than about 1mm below), there will be a problem if it is used as (or with) top beespace boxes.

Some folk insist that top beespace is better -- but you will get into a frightful mess if you have a mixture of top and bottom beespace boxes. Bottom beespace is part of the standard for the National.

 

[pargyle]

That would only be "the right way" if the box really was mis-assembled giving top beespace.

If the frames aren't flush with the top of the box sides (or less than about 1mm below), there will be a problem if it is used as (or with) top beespace boxes.

Some folk insist that top beespace is better -- but you will get into a frightful mess if you have a mixture of top and bottom beespace boxes. Bottom beespace is part of the standard for the National.

Yes, I know ... but it was this line from #5

"My hive is a Thornes national. I would say that there is about 12-15mm between the tops of the frames and the underside of the crown board"

and this line from #8

"Do you think it would be worth swapping the brood box for one that I have made, that I know has the frames flush with the top of the box"

That threw me in that direction ...

 

[Chris B]

Normally, you'd only be thinking of putting on a super once you had brood on at least six frames

This is possibly true but there is no need to count frames of brood as a guide to adding a super. The super is not for brood it's for adult bees. If the adult bees have outgrown the brood box that's when you add a super, preferably a bit earlier. No need to make rules about brood frames. Just add it if they look full of bees. Simple.

 

[itma]

This is possibly true but there is no need to count frames of brood as a guide to adding a super. The super is not for brood it's for adult bees. If the adult bees have outgrown the brood box that's when you add a super, preferably a bit earlier. No need to make rules about brood frames. Just add it if they look full of bees. Simple.

Yes Chris, but new beeks are pretty unreliable about reporting how full the box actually is. Counting the amount of brood simply provides a non-subjective measure of how big the colony really is. Nothing more than that.

This from a posting in the members forum of Canterbury Beekeepers (20th March)

I had to do a split last weekend. Once colony was getting very full despite being in the biggest sized national brood box. Fingers crossed that wasn't too soon.

and no, I don't have any other details.

My main concern here would be that, with no laying space (and especially if there are plenty bees in the box) that they might go into swarm mode very early. And getting some brood space asap would be the priority to avoid that.

 

[Amari]

With bottom bee space the top of the frames should be flush or slightly below the top of the brood box or super. With bottom bee space the top of the frames should be approx 7mm below the top of the brood box or super. Obviously all the boxes should be the same otherwise a sticky mess can be the result. It will be easy to sort out providing you can free up the box from the bees and frames. One simple mistake some people do is to forget to fit the frame runners.
Yes just transfer the frames and bees to your new box on a nice warm day and then you can alter the original box.

Two bottoms?

 

[Swarm]

This is possibly true but there is no need to count frames of brood as a guide to adding a super. The super is not for brood it's for adult bees. If the adult bees have outgrown the brood box that's when you add a super, preferably a bit earlier. No need to make rules about brood frames. Just add it if they look full of bees. Simple.

Extra space for adult bees.

 

[beeno]

Dearest Beenovice,
I feel for you. You should have had a damned good look at your first inspection, the weather was terrific and you could have taken your time. Not your fault at all. Inspect according to the weather not calendar. Make sure to keep records of your obserations. Wait for a warm day, which will not be this week now and take your time, so that you can re-gain control of your colony. Best of luck.