Are most UK hives Fumigated?

[nbeek]

I would have thought most of us would agree that Fumigating the wood that makes a beehive is not good.

However I have just come across something that seems to suggest that many of our bought hives are fumigated.

I Googled "Bee Hives" and eventually came to this picture,

w w w . alibaba.com/product-detail/MSF-Complete-National-Cedar-bee-Hive_60663709055.html

which looked very familiar, and after going through my Bookmarks I came across this,

w w w . thorne.co.uk/hives-and-bees/build-your-own-hive/national-hive-assembled-empty

there are two things which concern me a lot here,

1. if you scroll down on the Thorne web site to their description they say "Manufactured at Rand..." Rand is the location of their Head Office / Factory; so they claim they manufacture these Beehives... THEN WHY is an exactly (visually) identical one being shown on a Chinese website ... which says,..

2. "We can send them after your payment of 15 days,because all the wood need to be fumigated before they go out" scroll down to near the bottom of the page where the red writing begins to see this.

Having imported many containers (through work) from China (Far East) I know that their Ports effectively insist on a 'Fumigation Certificate' or also called 'Pest Control Certificate' ("Pest" means insects ... I think we can join the dots).

How many of us have bought or are (still?) considering to buy a beehive from Thorne (I don't want to single them out, I HAVEN'T looked at other British Beehive Suppliers, but I am assuming it may be a similar story).

I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this, or has any thoughts on keeping our bees in fumigated homes?

Oh, by the way, it goes without saying this Post is not about the Price differential between the two sites (I mean the Mark-Up) that's off-topic and another Post

 

[Erichalfbee]

Could the Chinese website simply be using Thorne pictures? They do similar with Flows

 

[MartinL]

Think you'll find, we insist on alot of imports being free of the nasties you find in places abroad.
Regrettably, we can't control copyright! Especially in the far east! ?

If you look at the alibaba.com 3rd Pic, the roof does not have a vent or Thornes Logo!

 

[nbeek]

Think you'll find, we insist on alot of imports being free of the nasties you find in places abroad.

from my personal experience I can assure you that a 'Fumigation Certificate' is standard for all container / shipments from China with wood inside them (if it is just steel, including steel pallets, it's not required).

Which then makes your statement about "nasties" even more thought provoking!

Meaning it's bad enough that the hives' wood is being fumigated, it's even worse that non-UK chemicals are being used, quite possibly not to the same safety standards as here in the UK.

 

[nbeek]

Could the Chinese website simply be using Thorne pictures? They do similar with Flows

Yes, that's a valid point, one thing I think is strange, is if you scroll down the Alibaba site under "Technics Contrast" you will see them extolling the(ir) Dovetail Joint ... but the photo shows "Normal Hive Binding" the same as Thorne, suggesting it may be a copied photo taken from Thorne's site.

But if you look at the other photos, including other suppliers on the same site, you will see 'real' photos, meaning sitting ontop of things etc. instead of the 'catalogue' style photos on Thorne's site (why they don't write their name over their photos I don't know?). This does seem to suggest that they do manufacture or at least have access to the factory...

one way I suppose would be to ask for additional photos of the National Hive... I'll try that and I'll get back one way or the other, I definitely do not want to be using fumigated hives: Are we in agreement at least that fumigated hives are bad?

 

[MartinL]

Has anyone noticed the minimum order quantity?

 

[Hachi]

there are two things which concern me a lot here,

1. if you scroll down on the Thorne web site to their description they say "Manufactured at Rand..." Rand is the location of their Head Office / Factory; so they claim they manufacture these Beehives... THEN WHY is an exactly (visually) identical one being shown on a Chinese website ... which says,..

I'm not sure you have been fair to Thornes both in terms of casting doubt on where they manufacture and linking them to a Chinese product requiring fumigation.

I think you should ascertain your facts before leaping to conclusions and questioning the integrity of a UK supplier and their activities.

 

[MuswellMetro]

i thought thornes use canadian red cedar or white English cedar

The design of the modified BS national was a goverment approve British Standard design and plans are readily available, it would not be a breach of copyright to copy a modified BS national

 

[gillsmith]

I am Gill from Thornes. If course, we manufacture all our hives at Rand. We buy no woodwork at all from China.

 

[nbeek]

That gives us some reassurance, thank you.

Where on your website are photos of your manufacturing process, showing the hives in different stages of production, etc. not assembly. If not the website, then Facebook or something?

If there are no photos, then it would be a simple process for you to walk over to the factory and take a dozen photos on your phone and Post them on this Forum, a selfie or two would be nice, or something similar (tomorrow of course, not today, it's a bit late). That would be appreciated and go a Very Long way to removing any doubt over your products quality.

I should add a caveat here on behalf of Gill before he replies:
It is reasonable for him to respond by saying that the factory is not manufacturing any at the moment as they make them in batches, so some weeks may go by without any hives being manufactured at all.

 

[DanBee]

The simple answer is that they've pinched Thornes' picture! Surely that's more logical than a whole international conspiracy based on one photo...?

I've been to Rand several times and it is very impressive. One look at the woodworking shops there would reassure anyone that they make their own equipment.

Where on your website are photos of your manufacturing process, showing the hives in different stages of production, etc. not assembly. If not the website, then Facebook or something?

If there are no photos, then it would be a simple process for you to walk over to the factory and take a dozen photos on your phone and Post them on this Forum, a selfie or two would be nice, or something similar (tomorrow of course, not today, it's a bit late). That would be appreciated and go a Very Long way to removing any doubt over your products quality.

I should add a caveat here on behalf of Gill before he replies:
It is reasonable for him to respond by saying that the factory is not manufacturing any at the moment as they make them in batches, so some weeks may go by without any hives being manufactured at all.

FFS, who do you think you are to first suggest that Thornes - long established and greatly respected - are being underhand or deceitful based upon one duplicated photo, and second to have the gall to instruct Gill to post photos of the factory etc "to go a long way to removing any doubts" ?

You seeded the doubts, time you did a little bit of research and then wrote a very sincere apology here to Thornes. Your attitude and your accusations stink, quite frankly.

 

[drex]

I agree. All of my hives are Thornes flat pack budget hives ( except two which are poly - the look of which I hate), all of my frames are bought as seconds in the sales. I have no problem over quality. I did once receive a twisted side wall, that was immediately replaced with no quibble.

 

[Anduril]

Chinese hives have been discussed a lot on the forum, some of which go black, the rooves are inadequate, very thin ply on top and moisture builds up inside the hive. If you wish to pay those prices, then buyer beware. There are pictures in the Thorne catalogue of some of the operation. I am sure if you are uncertain about the British product, then I would suggest a quick phone call to Thorne and they would be only too willing to show you around. Then please feel free to do as many selfies as you like. I will await your selfies with pop corn.
On the other hand if you wish to save money go to a sawmill that cuts western red cedar and make your own, plenty of plans available. Of course you will have to season the wood and then get it to the correct thickness.

 

[colinc]

If you went to the trouble of passing off Chinese imports as British made I am sure you could fake/steal some photos to "prove" they're UK made.....???
Can't believe this thread.


If you don't trust Thornes download plans from Dave Cushman and make your own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[nbeek]

I was just asking a legitimate question, after seeing the same photos ... the Chinese company pinching the Thorne photos is a more reasonable explanation if I think of them as 'salting' their own photos.

It's just I thought (and still do) it very strange that,
1. Thornes photos are (mostly) isolated as opposed to being shown in a more natural manner, which would show them of best, it also means that they're easy to pinch,
2. and I thought it really strange (and even more do now from reading above) that they did not show of their factory, they only have one small photo on page 19 of their catalogue (referenced above) which does not clearly show the manufacture of the hives, which we all agree look great (by the way the other photos are of beewax processing and assembly).

Before the barrage started I was starting to very strongly come around to the belief that the most likely answer is Thornes photos were pinched, just bear in mind my background, I have worked with UK companies on developing products to be manufactured in the Far East only then to find photos of these products being offered on the manufacturers website, therefore I seriously considered that something like this may have happened: Just remember no one would place a large order for hives without a sample, and I have found that if a company can provide a good sample they will provide a good complete order, in the hope of future business; for some strange reason bad companies selling rubbish (that looked good in their photos) never provided good samples, why didn't they go to the effort to get a good sample to bag the big order... never figured that out.

As for making my own, I would love to do that, but lets be honest, has anyone here been able (without very expensive equipment) to make hives as good as Thornes, I think not, also I think they would end up more expensive, as we cannot by in Bulk.

Anyway, some of us need to allow our blood pressure to come down... take a deep breathe and have a conversation, not that I think there is much left for this Thread.

 

[Anduril]

I was just asking a legitimate question, after seeing the same photos ... the Chinese company pinching the Thorne photos is a more reasonable explanation if I think of them as 'salting' their own photos.

It's just I thought (and still do) it very strange that,
1. Thornes photos are (mostly) isolated as opposed to being shown in a more natural manner, which would show them of best, it also means that they're easy to pinch,
2. and I thought it really strange (and even more do now from reading above) that they did not show of their factory, they only have one small photo on page 19 of their catalogue (referenced above) which does not clearly show the manufacture of the hives, which we all agree look great (by the way the other photos are of beewax processing and assembly).

Before the barrage started I was starting to very strongly come around to the belief that the most likely answer is Thornes photos were pinched, just bear in mind my background, I have worked with UK companies on developing products to be manufactured in the Far East only then to find photos of these products being offered on the manufacturers website, therefore I seriously considered that something like this may have happened: Just remember no one would place a large order for hives without a sample, and I have found that if a company can provide a good sample they will provide a good complete order, in the hope of future business; for some strange reason bad companies selling rubbish (that looked good in their photos) never provided good samples, why didn't they go to the effort to get a good sample to bag the big order... never figured that out.

As for making my own, I would love to do that, but lets be honest, has anyone here been able (without very expensive equipment) to make hives as good as Thornes, I think not, also I think they would end up more expensive, as we cannot by in Bulk.

Anyway, some of us need to allow our blood pressure to come down... take a deep breathe and have a conversation, not that I think there is much left for this Thread.

It's a shame the pictures have gone but look at this thread
https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34595&highlight=Sawmill

 

[nbeek]

Thank you for the cilfiegansawmill.com link, I really wish the photos were still there... but from a very rough calculation, that seems a reasonable price for good quality, although as I have effectively no tools for making my own making anything less than several may not pay for itself, but it must be very satisfying to make your own hive, even if the end quality isn't that great!

 

[Hachi]

I was just asking a legitimate question, after seeing the same photos ... the Chinese company pinching the Thorne photos is a more reasonable explanation if I think of them as 'salting' their own photos.

It's just I thought (and still do) it very strange that,
1. Thornes photos are (mostly) isolated as opposed to being shown in a more natural manner, which would show them of best, it also means that they're easy to pinch,
2. and I thought it really strange (and even more do now from reading above) that they did not show of their factory, they only have one small photo on page 19 of their catalogue (referenced above) which does not clearly show the manufacture of the hives, which we all agree look great (by the way the other photos are of beewax processing and assembly).

Before the barrage started I was starting to very strongly come around to the belief that the most likely answer is Thornes photos were pinched, just bear in mind my background, I have worked with UK companies on developing products to be manufactured in the Far East only then to find photos of these products being offered on the manufacturers website, therefore I seriously considered that something like this may have happened: Just remember no one would place a large order for hives without a sample, and I have found that if a company can provide a good sample they will provide a good complete order, in the hope of future business; for some strange reason bad companies selling rubbish (that looked good in their photos) never provided good samples, why didn't they go to the effort to get a good sample to bag the big order... never figured that out.

As for making my own, I would love to do that, but lets be honest, has anyone here been able (without very expensive equipment) to make hives as good as Thornes, I think not, also I think they would end up more expensive, as we cannot by in Bulk.

Anyway, some of us need to allow our blood pressure to come down... take a deep breathe and have a conversation, not that I think there is much left for this Thread.

There is no barrage just simple folk being taken aback by your arrogance, and breathtaking rudeness suggesting that the most reputable company supplying bee keeping eqpt in the UK, is brought into question for no better reason than they have not taken detailed photographs of their manufacturing process to your approval.

If you can see no wrong in your behaviour then you should perhaps engage with a trusted friend for help. The polite thing to do [you've now heard it twice] is to write your apology to Thornes. To save your continued blushes, Gill is a very nice lady whom I believe sits on the board of Thornes.

 

[nbeek]

Hi Hachi

I'll deal with the points you raised in the order that you made them;

1. I asked a question, provided evidence, suggested an interpretation, MartinL made an excellent point when addressing the evidence, based on that, by and large I have changed my original interpretation.
2. You have not read the early Messages carefully enough; "photographs of their manufacturing process" was not raised until Message 10 (I was half hoping / expecting people to come with info. like, this is the Sawmill they use, click here to see / read).
3. My "behaviour" is ... actually re-read 1 above.
4. You suggest I should write to Thorne for ... discussing their products ... a discussion which had resulted by Message 5 in me starting to strongly come around to the counter interpretation of the evidence - that the photos had been pinched from Thornes website.
5. Whether Gill (soft G) is nice or otherwise, is irrelevant to the topic of this discussion (I'm sure she's very nice); if she "sits on the board of Thornes" that tells us two things, first she should know what she's talking about based on factual information (but difficult to prove - it's difficult to prove a negative), which none of us likely have access to; and second, she has a vested interest in protecting the reputation of Thornes, that could be interpreted either way.

Finally my use of the word "barrage" was in reference to how this Post has quickly turned away from rational, civil discussion (which ended after Message 10, first page), which is being continued by your last Message in which I count two acts of name calling, three implied and two explicit insults, that's an average of one for every two thirds of a line written. Your second Message is in stark contrast to your first, which was concise, valid and thought provoking, and it helped focus my mind, for it I say thank you.

I trust that the name calling and insults will end, and if you do not want to discuss the topic of the Post then naturally neither will I and I cordially say to you, good-night.

 

[Hachi]

Your last post sums you up completely. I'm done horse to water and all that.........