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Amm wing challenge... have you the software?

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Poly Hive 

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These were taken in the early 1990's from an apiary that was for sale.

According to my note on the slide I had an index of... well lets see what modern techniques make of them.
 

Poly Hive 

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Not got the time to learn yet another proggy so am hoping someone on here has the skills.

PH
 

Midland Beek 

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You have previously used the term 'off the scale', so I will look forward to finding out what the values are.
 

mbc 

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Where's wilderness ? he did some wing morphometry for me
 

Hombre 

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BTW Congratulations to Richard Bache, Drayton, Somerset on the publication of the BBKA Practical Assessments in the December BBKA news.

Examination success with both the Advanced Husbandry and the Master Beekeeper Certificate.

Take a box Richard, well done.
 

Poly Hive 

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I had PM from Ireland this morning telling me that these samples fall well with in the parameters of AMM.

From memory when I did them, some 100 slides worth of, they were very deep into AMM territory on the graph so it is good to have it confirmed by modern techniques.

PH
 

Chris B 

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Hi PH,
for those of us not knowledgable on this subject, what does that mean? Pure AMM or high percentage AMM?
 

Poly Hive 

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I made them to be pure AMM at the time but now that thought seems to be thought naive by some.

However in thousands of measurements I have never seen Discoidal shift OFF the BIBBA scale. To the left that is, so they were reading (from memory) 12 and the scale stopped at 10.

In my heart of heats though I am still sure they were a good sample of AMM. Which is why I voted with my wallet and bought 10. :)

PH
 

wilderness 

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Where's wilderness ? he did some wing morphometry for me
Here I am :hurray:
Thanks for the heads-up mbc.

I've spent the last 2 days putting up a new shed at the assoc apiary and having my first Xmas dinner last night.

I'll take a look tomorrow to see how my measuring measures up to Richard's.

Hope the knee is feeling better PH
 

wilderness 

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Hi PH,

I've done the measurements on your wings and can confirm that they all fall within the limits for AMM for Discoidal Shift (DS).
Typical AMM values are from 0 to -10.
Yours range from -0.3 to -5.5

Another parameter I measured was Cubital Index (CI).
Typical AMM values are from 1.0 to 1.9
Yours range from 1.4 to 2.4

I've attached 4 files.
1) your image with numbers alongside the wings
2) Your wings which fall within all the AMM parameters
3) Your wings which fall just outside the AMM parameters for CI
4) A set of wings measurements from pure AMM taken from literature

The box denotes the limits for AMM and the plot shows DS vs CI
 

MuswellMetro 

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Hi PH,
for those of us not knowledgable on this subject, what does that mean? Pure AMM or high percentage AMM?
Chris B
just in case no one else answers, from my limited knowledge the old British black bee "Apis mellifera Mellifera" has a different wing vein pattern from the italian and Carnie Bees#

so if the bee wings here have a high negatadive decoidal ( angle of veins) shift AMM wing vein pattern, they may originate from the old AMM british black Bee

i will end there, as the last time, i posted on this ,asking for information on a feral colony bee wing, i got opposing veiws as to whether this had any useful meaning so :auto: and got in the middle of an arguement
 
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gavin 

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So ... 7 wings in the Amm box, three just outside (and OK according to some people) plus two that sit outside on the grounds of their Cubital Index. Two out of twelve not being clearly Amm, but elsewhere we have been discussing this and it is generally the overall colony value that is of interest. A couple of outliers are not that important.

If the bees looked like Amm and behaved like Amm then they were Amm. Those odd two wings could be drifting bees or just oddities. They *might* represent a small degree of hybridisation, and so that is why it is useful to look at other traits too.

That's my take on it anyway.

cheers

Gavin
 

Richard Bache 

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BTW Congratulations to Richard Bache, Drayton, Somerset on the publication of the BBKA Practical Assessments in the December BBKA news.

Examination success with both the Advanced Husbandry and the Master Beekeeper Certificate.

Take a box Richard, well done.
Thanks very much

I'll take a look tomorrow to see how my measuring measures up to Richard's.
Tongue Firmly in Cheek I am afraid;)
 

Finman 

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These were taken in the early 1990's from an apiary that was for sale.

According to my note on the slide I had an index of... well lets see what modern techniques make of them.
Who beebreeder uses this technigue at all or seriously?
 

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