Alternatives to Buckfast bees

[Finman]

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Alternative to buckfast that features of bought queen stays for ever.... There is no such bees, which are alternative in third generation. Except general mongrel.

The price of queen is so small, that buy them. Money is not everything, let it be our motto.
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[beebopper]

I run mongrels. They are fine don't get aggressive when mated and don't cost me anything to buy.
I also have some amm the jury is out on those atm.
It's easy to fall into the buying queens game but I have avoided it.
The SBI was happy with them he said he would like some of the colonies and I am happy with them but I don't look at other peoples bees so I have no comparison.

I have found that many 'mongrel' colonies turn difficult to handle - very swarmy, run on the comb, very aggressive. I wonder if it is to due to where I live? It could be that I never actually get to a 'stable' local mongrel state as there are so many people always bringing in new genetic material.

 

[madasafish]

I have found that many 'mongrel' colonies turn difficult to handle - very swarmy, run on the comb, very aggressive. I wonder if it is to due to where I live? It could be that I never actually get to a 'stable' local mongrel state as there are so many people always bringing in new genetic material.

Ditto.

Every external-to-me swarm I have collected has been aggressive and I have requeened all without exception.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Similar here. There are lots of beekeepers hereabouts. A lot of people move from the city to live the dream on a small holding and decide to keep bees. Talking to fellow members of my association one if the preferred bees is Italian. They don't do well here but nevertheless they "look pretty"
The drones mess with our local queens. I've caught quite a few swarms since we moved here and at first gave them a chance. Now I tend to just use them to draw a box of bomb then unite with another colony with a nice queen

 

[birdsandbees]

I'm still learning but started out with mongrel bees (swarm collection) and very dark bees, initially great, quite calm but successive generations became vile! I bought BF queens and tried them but when superseded the daughter colonies became aggressive, This year I have bought in BF island bred queens to replace evil ones from a breeder with good reviews and I'm also trying out Carnie queens, Ideally I'd love AMM or near to, but with the weekly stings I've had enough!
Still collect swarms and have noticed quite a lot of variation in temperament but any that show aggression when they start producing their own offspring will get replaced.

 

[Finman]

but any that show aggression when they start producing their own offspring will get replaced.

That cannot be true. That needs imagination..

Every and every.

My every bad hive stays bad. They are small bad or big bad but never become better.

Even if they are sometimes bad and mostly good, I am not going to wait, when they start to sting me. I do not need to stand their surprises. I eliminate those.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Crosses do seem to be a problem and others have reported Buckfast issues too. However by replacing them each year or two which has been suggested by some as a solution you are just introducing bees into the local environment with could mate with other beekeepers stock and cause THEM behavoural issues, and if they are trying to breed decent bees, that's unfair. The best solution must be to breed from your own best and over time they should become decent. Getting together with a few local beekeepers would help no-end in this matter and could be quite fun (or annoying dependant on the beekeepers in question). However I would probably tend towards starting with Carni's over Ligusticas (Italians) due to the fact that Italians tend to have a high winter tick-over rate - i.e. they keep a large winter brood box and consume lots of winter stores. The problem is that some bee breeders produce queen bees - not necessarily ones that have been bred to be non-swarmy so you can get Italians that won't stay in the box as well as Carni's that do have a reputation for swarminess.

 

[B+.]

Crosses do seem to be a problem and others have reported Buckfast issues too. However by replacing them each year or two which has been suggested by some as a solution you are just introducing bees into the local environment with could mate with other beekeepers stock and cause THEM behavoural issues, and if they are trying to breed decent bees, that's unfair.

I think its time that we woke up and smelled the coffee. The truth is that the only way to breed bees successfully in this country is to use instrumental insemination. Isolated mating stations are fine if you can guarantee that there are no other bees within 7-10 km, but, who in this country can say that truthfully? The other alternative is to use island mating stations the way they do in Europe.

 

[Finman]

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Don't worry about local mongrels. Most of to Britain imported queens come from Hawaij. They die and local bees survive.

This forum is strange. You may breed hygienic bees, B-type virus resistant bees, chalkbrood resistant, varroa resistant, swarming resistat, all bad resistat. But, do not touch local mongrels.

 

[Finman]

The other alternative is to use island mating stations the way they do in Europe.

Cyprus

 

[birdsandbees]

That cannot be true. That needs imagination..

Every and every.

My every bad hive stays bad. They are small bad or big bad but never become better.

Even if they are sometimes bad and mostly good, I am not going to wait, when they start to sting me. I do not need to stand their surprises. I eliminate those.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself or misunderstand genetics, what I am thinking is that bad tempered adult bees in a swarm with a virgin queen aren't her daughters they are her mothers offspring, I don't assume she will produce the same temperament but prefer to wait and see.

 

[Finman]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself or misunderstand genetics, what I am thinking is that bad tempered adult bees in a swarm with a virgin queen aren't her daughters they are her mothers offspring, I don't assume she will produce the same temperament but prefer to wait and see.

If you do not keep tight selection in your apiary, hives produce what ever daughters. Genetic knowledge does not help. But when you squeeze bad *****, it helps.

 

[birdsandbees]

If you do not keep tight selection in your apiary, hives produce what ever daughters. Genetic knowledge does not help. But when you squeeze bad *****, it helps.

Indeed it does

 

[B+.]

what I am thinking is that bad tempered adult bees in a swarm with a virgin queen aren't her daughters they are her mothers offspring, I don't assume she will produce the same temperament but prefer to wait and see.

The Virgin Queen will be a sister of those aggressive bees though

 

[birdsandbees]

The Virgin Queen will be a sister of those aggressive bees though

Or potentially a half sister with a nicer dad? Perhaps I'm just an optimist

 

[B+.]

Or potentially a half sister with a nicer dad? Perhaps I'm just an optimist

More likely to be the shady character that never gets invited to family events and nobody talks about ;-)

 

[Motobiman]

The trouble with my understanding of this nature/nuture thing and aggressive behaviour, too many variables.

 

[Motobiman]

Indeed it does

So are we saying the resulting colonies of queens of an existing aggressive colony are ALWAYS aggressive and the ONLY way to revert to passive bees is to requeen?

 

[Finman]

So are we saying the resulting colonies of queens of an existing aggressive colony are ALWAYS aggressive and the ONLY way to revert to passive bees is to requeen?

Aggressivenes is the basic nature of honeybee
Without it a colony does not survive long in wilderness. Along generations it tend to return to wild form.

Fefence has several components which inherits differently: Attacking, stinging and running along frames.

Honeybee has developed before a human was an ape.

I are very often All and Every in these writings. They wgong terms in beejeeping and mislead beekeepers.

Honey bee is interesting in that meaning, that colonies are more individuals than all and every. But of course, if you have one hive, it is all or no one.

Honeybee has developed from wasps, and ants too.

.

 

[B+.]

So are we saying the resulting colonies of queens of an existing aggressive colony are ALWAYS aggressive and the ONLY way to revert to passive bees is to requeen?

In biology, there are rarely the absolute answers that you seem to be looking for here. You have to get used to dealing with "most of the time" answers.
If you read books like "Bee genetics and breeding" by Thomas E. Rinderer, you will see that the expressed behaviour (phenotype) is the sum of the genetic attributes, an environmental component and a residual error that you get in most statistical equations.
That said, you can look at the genetic component and break it down
Drones, being haploid, inherit all of their 16 chromosomes from their mother. All the sperm that an individual drone produces are clones because he has only those 16 chromosomes and must pass them on. However, individual drones produced by a queen can vary ever so slightly.
If you assume that a queen only mated with a single drone, it would be easier to understand the possible outcomes of their union. However, the queen mates with a number of drones, each adding their sperm to the contents of the queens spermatheca. When the queen lays eggs, we see multiple "sub families" within the worker population and the behaviour of the colony as a whole is the product of all of these individuals (AND the environment they are in).
The queen (and worker) being diploid receive half their chromosomes from their "mother" and half from the drone whose sperm fused with the egg nucleus (their "father"). All the queens eggs are not the same though. The 16 chromosomes of the egg are a random assortment of the 32 she has (16 from her mother and 16 from her father).
When you put all of this together, you will see that you can't talk of certainties the way you would when talking of the output of a machine. You have to recognise that its like standing on the beach with the tide coming in: the sand beneath your feet keeps moving.