Agricultural occupancy...

[Queens59]

OK - FinL wishes to move to a place with more land (he is 81)...He wants an orchard, large garden, large veg garden, wild flower meadows...get the picture

He is looking at many ag. occ. places...

Does Apiculture count as 'managing animals/creatures for food?

Or can we use my husbands agricultural qual...instead??

And if we did move is there a limit on plot size for agricultural scheme payments?

Many thanks

 

[Black Comb]

Methinks if he is 81 you will be doing most of the work?

 

[Queens59]

Yep - I fear this is true...

 

[For want of a better word]

We looked at a smallholding near Tiverton Devon some time back that had agricultural occupancy written into the deeds.

Unfortunately we were told that beekeepering /duck rearing etc were not within the parameters. The members of the family had to be working / employed in agriculture.. even horticulture was not acceptable!

Probably the estate agent had someone in mind as they were desperate to put us off!!
I would have thought the average wages paid to a farm worker at that time... even in a top farm managerial position, would not have been enough to support the mortgage required to buy.....

 

[The Cumbrian]

I don't know if this helps but

Section 336 Interpretation in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 says

"agriculture” includes horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming, the breeding and keeping of livestock (including any creature kept for the production of food, wool, skins or fur, or for the purpose of its use in the farming of land), the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens and nursery grounds, and the use of land for woodlands where that use is ancillary to the farming of land for other agricultural purposes, and “agricultural” shall be construed accordingly;

However In

Wood v. S.O.S. 17/3/94 (Great Yarmouth Borough Council) DCS No. 051570387.

"Here an Inspector found that the proportion of the household income derived from the wife's agricultural work was only 16% and she earned less than half of what her husband earned, who worked in non-agricultural employment. The wife worked 25 hrs per week in agriculture, amounting to some 60% of her working week and about 52% of the normal working week of a farm worker. It was concluded that the wife was 'mainly employed' in agriculture and her husband was her dependent in that he depended on her to maintain their standard of living (i.e. stay in the ag-tied dwelling)."

So my opinion would be Bees would count in that they are a creature kept to produce food but a good percentage of your income would have to come from them.

As I say just my interpretation of 2 sets of information.

 

[BeeJayBee]

He is looking at many ag. occ. places...

Does Apiculture count as 'managing animals/creatures for food?

Or can we use my husbands agricultural qual...instead??

And if we did move is there a limit on plot size for agricultural scheme payments?

The Cumbrian says it much better, but I'll join in all the same.

I think you might have to look at the restrictions within the title of the individual property, but as far as I know most 'agg occ' properties are for those who are employed in agriculture, rather than those who want to use the property itself for agricultural purposes of whatever description.

The alternative describes a property we once had. A large part of the 'garden' had previously been acquired from a local farmer, but the council refused consent for change of use so that piece of land remained designated as 'agricultural'. We were advised that it could not be built on, could not be used as a driveway. It could not be used for herbaceous borders, but could be used in the same way as other nearby 'agricultural areas', which included growing grass species for fodder/grain, raising livestock/poultry etc. Trees could be grown for fruit, to offer shade for stock or act as windbreak. Flowers could be grown for bulbs/seed/cut stems. Honey production on a larger than hobby scale was also mentioned, and that was when we first became interested in beekeeping, but sadly needed to move to follow the day job.

It would be wise to check carefully before purchase, maybe a few phone calls could get you accurate answers relevant to each property that's being considered.

 

[Queens59]

Thanks all - I did wonder, I think I'll have to persuade him to double and triple check...

 

[Chris B]

Agriculture would include bees unless specifically excluded. You would need to look at the specific wording of each agricultural tie - these are just restrictions imposed by the local authority planning department and could potentially be unique for each property.

 

[luckydunny]

Can they be applied to be removed from a property?

 

[The Cumbrian]

Can they be applied to be removed from a property?

Yes - but I am not sure of the ins and outs.

EDIT: Just found this from

Agricultural Occupancy Condition
Standard Note: SN/SC/470

Last updated: 19 January 2011

Author: Christopher Barclay

Section Science and Environment Section

Local Authorities are entitled to attach conditions to planning permission by the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. A Circular on planning conditions generally describes the criteria for removal of an agricultural occupancy condition:

Where an agricultural occupancy condition has been appropriately imposed it will not be appropriate to remove it in a subsequent application unless it is shown that the existing need for dwellings for agricultural workers, both on the particular farm and in the locality, no longer warrants reserving the house for that purpose. However, the fact that planning permission for a dwelling would in all probability be granted today without an agricultural occupancy condition is a material consideration [in an application seeking removal of the condition].

Which suggests to me you need to be able to prove the property isn't needed by anyone for agricultural occupancy.

 

[Queens59]

Yes - I asked about this. The property has to be advertised locally in the area for 12 months, then to a wider audience for 12 months...If neither of these attract a 'qualified' buyer...you may apply for the lifting of the restrictions. However, I was also told this was only succesful in about 55% of the cases, costs thousands - and has led to some residents being fined for nnot adhearing to the exact wording of their restriction...sometimes thousands of pounds!

 

[MartinL]

I don't know if this helps but

Section 336 Interpretation in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 says
.......
However In .... Wood v. S.O.S. 17/3/94 (Great Yarmouth Borough Council) DCS No. 051570387.

"Here an Inspector found that .....................

So my opinion would be Bees would count................
As I say just my interpretation of 2 sets of information.

It is the opinion of the L.P.A. or, (if taken to appeal) the opinion of the planning Inspector that will count.
Once the L.P.A. have come to a decision, you would have only one (possibly very expensive) chance to overrule the original decision. Remember that the inspector will have been through the same schooling as the person who made the original decision. Your own "biased" opinion has absolutely no effect on the outcome.

No matter how eloquently argued, Bees are not in need of the land that ties the property.
I'd steer well clear of any agricultural ties unless you've just won the £40M in the lottery!

 

[luckydunny]

Some very informative posts here. Not sure if I need to recork the red wine but is there two different threads.

1. Land has an agricultural tie to useage.

2. A dwelling has an agricultural tie to person living there's income/earning from land.

I assume therefore that land could have a house on it that does not have the tie but the land does.

Is there a differentiating factor to removing said tie????

Pass the bottle!!!!

 

[adrian wilford]

If i add all the hours i spent beekeeping, not the income!!! it would be by far my main occupation, would that count? as i am looking to move and have looked at a number of premises with agricultural occ restrictions, but not sure of the rules, another note of interest,
i have just purchased some logs from a person who's sole buisiness is supplying logs and he has just been informed by the local authority that he is not an agricultural business but a commercial one, and he had to pay £1,700 for planing permission to erect a building, if the farmer over the road had applied for planning to erect a building it would have been £70. interesting

 

[The Cumbrian]

he has just been informed by the local authority that he is not an agricultural business but a commercial one, and he had to pay £1,700 for planing permission to erect a building, if the farmer over the road had applied for planning to erect a building it would have been £70. interesting

Not fair is it but Forestry isn't classed as agriculture.

 

[Black Comb]

Not sure whether thisis relevant but from memory Defra classes bees as livestock.

 

[The Cumbrian]

I have assumed in all this that the previous occupant was employed in agriculture.

If the property has been in continuous occupation by somebody not employed in agriculture for 10 years that can be another reason for applying for the lifting of the occupancy restriction.

However it must be continuous a break for say renovation voids this.

 

[adrian wilford]

i wonder if farmers get subsidies on forestry plantations and xmas tree plantations?

 

[Queens59]

In a way I hope bees do coun t as I would love more but FinL is against this - but if they were the reason we qualified, I'd have to get to Bee Farmer level wouldn't I? Now where are those bee catalogues......

 

[porterswoods]

i wonder if farmers get subsidies on forestry plantations and xmas tree plantations?

No they don't, not for commercial production. They would if it formed part of a stewardship scheme.

The agricultural tie does not relate to the use of the land around it. It is a tie to the occupation of the resident. As far as I'm aware the resident has to be or have been working in agriculture. So a retired farmer or the divorced spouse of a farmer is fine.

Bees on a commercial scale would count, but you would have to prove that it was commercial and could pay for the expense of a house.

Most hobby beekepers will not do that.