Aggressive Hive - Running Out of Options

[rae]

I have occasionally mentioned the hive of super-aggressive bees that we were given last year. A quick recap:

- A local beek gave up last year, and give us his WBCs, one of which was occupied.
- We went and inspected it using our "normal" gear, only to be met with the most ridiculous onslaught that we had to abandon the inspection.
- We returned suitably equipped (gaffa taped drain gauntlets, trying stinging that ... sucker), inspected them, re-hived them in a non-leaky hive, slapped varroa treatment on them, and left them to it.
- We moved them into our apiary mid-winter. No problems.
- They were clearly still super aggressive early this year.
- We found and killed the queen, left them for a week, knocked down the resultant queen cells, then left them for another week.
- We then merged them with a nuc, headed by a known good buckfast queen
- A week after that, there were eggs and brood, the bees were still filthy tempered.
- They killed her the week after that, no eggs, just queen cells.
- 4 weeks later, they are still utterly filthy tempered. They are something of a menace, if we inspect them, everyone on a nearby foot path is fair game. If they are rattled for any reason (e.g. inspecting the next door hive) we get followed back to the house.

So, I am going to don full armour and inspect them fully next week end. I will find one of three things:

1) The queen cells have failed, they are queenless, so no new brood is coming through. In this case I leave well alone until the colony dies off.

2) The queen cells have worked, but they are drone layers. In this case I leave well alone until the colony dies off. The drones will be fine as they are related to the Buckfast, not the psycho queen.

3) The queen cells have worked, they have brood (which must be genetically good), so I will move the hive, leave an empty box at the old hive site and them kill off the flying bees (washing up liquid and water).

Any other options? I have to do something....

 

[HollyBee]

Just thinking out loud but have you put in a frame of brood from a mild tempered hive, surely if they then raise a Queen from that frame then they will accept it and they will be genetically different.

Or have you done this and I have just completely read over it

 

[enrico]

I would have given up long ago. I will tolerate defensive bees but not avid followers or attackers. There are times when a plate of petrol fumes is the best option fr all concerned!
Sorry......you asked!

 

[nessieb]

Has there been along enough period for the aggressive strain to all hatch out and come to the end of their lives to be replaced with the daughters of the new polite strain of bee?

 

[kevrhcfag]

I am new to this, still flighty of bees and couldn't really handle an aggressive hive or even a tad upset one.

But I'm curious as to why you are bothering?

They are causing you hassle.
More importantly causing other innocent people hassle and possible injury.
They have cost you a Queen.

I would get kitted up with some petrol and go and sort them out, never mind waiting a week. If you want another hive at this time of year its easy to make one, with better bees, I don't see what anybody gains by keeping them or putting up with it. If I still have bees in 3, 4 or 5 years time my response then would be the same as it is now, especially with public nearby, you choose to take the risk, they don't have a choice.

 

[Russel]

If there are any drones left from the old bad queen they will pass on her bad temper too?

Russ

 

[peteinwilts]

I personally would persist, and do the same.

Anytime you are in there, remove as many drones as possible. If the colony is too large, I would split them, then the queenless colonys are combined with more mild mannered bees.

by reducing the population, you will reduce the impact.

I have a small number of colonys waiting for queens (work in progress), including some extremely savage bees.

My most productive hive was born from a very angry colony, and although they have a little fiest in them, they are not uncomfortable to work with.

I however have a fair amount of space with no footpaths or people to get stung, and have no deadlines to get them in order. I also have a teenage daughter so also have a lot of patience.
I also cannot abide the thought of killing bees just because they are unpleasant to be around (i.e. not diseased!)

If the petrol can comes out, I would be happy to pop accross the border with a spare hive and take the little darlings on...

 

[rae]

Starting in reverse order....

If there are any drones left from the old bad queen they will pass on her bad temper too?

When we killed the old queen, we look out a frame of drones (which was nearly all of them). So we hopefully have minimised this.

But I'm curious as to why you are bothering?

Same reason as one might not want to kill off an irrational dog. If we can avoid killing lots of bees, that would be good. It isn't simply about "saving a colony" - I could create another hive in an instant from one of the other hives. The foot path is not so bad - very rarely used, we are miles from anyone.

Has there been along enough period for the aggressive strain to all hatch out and come to the end of their lives to be replaced with the daughters of the new polite strain of bee?

Any bee "laid" in the last 6 weeks should not be genetically aggressive. It is either original buckfast progeny, or that from the successor. Of course, if they have killed rather than superceded, the supply of new bees will be low.

There are times when a plate of petrol fumes is the best option fr all concerned!

If we have a laying queen when I inspect, this is probably the fate of the flyers. 500 of them kill themselves at every inspection....

Or have you done this and I have just completely read over it

Yes : - ) - that was the point of the merge with the nuc!

 

[richardbees]

if we inspect them, everyone on a nearby foot path is fair game. If they are rattled for any reason (e.g. inspecting the next door hive) we get followed back to the house.

Enough's enough!,,,,,,I agree with Enrico's suggestion

 

[peteinwilts]

my hat is off to Rae... i believe he is doing the right thing.

I find it interesting that there are calls from forum members on another current thread to ban a BKF member because he has just destroyed a colony of bees.... yet there are people on here suggesting this is what should be done.

I believed this forum was the promotion of bees, not the condemnation

 

[richardbees]

Pete,

Sure - if you're on your own private island but I think it's totally wrong to persist in keeping a colony of aggressive bees anywhere near anyone else

 

[peteinwilts]

Pete,

Sure - if you're on your own private island but I think it's totally wrong to persist in keeping a colony of aggressive bees anywhere near anyone else

where do you draw the line between trying to tame the bees and destroying the bees?

 

[merylvingien]

where do you draw the line between trying to tame the bees and destroying the bees?

At this point>

500 of them kill themselves at every inspection....

Totally irresponsible to even try and keep a colony behaving in this fashion anywhere near where some unsuspecting member of the public "might" walk.

Actually it’s probably even more dangerous in a remote situation, as anyone who did get hit by these bees would be very unlikely to be found anytime soon.

Just kill them and forget about them. We do not need bees like this, it does no one any favours at all.

 

[richardbees]

how long's a piece of string?

As soon as you are aware of imminent danger of unsuspecting passers being stung you should relocate the hive to an out-apiary, failing that, what other choice have you got?.

 

[itma]

...
- A local beek gave up last year, and give us his WBCs, one of which was occupied.

...I will find one of three things:

1) The queen cells have failed, they are queenless, so no new brood is coming through. In this case I leave well alone until the colony dies off.

2) The queen cells have worked, but they are drone layers. In this case I leave well alone until the colony dies off. The drones will be fine as they are related to the Buckfast, not the psycho queen.
...

In the case of no 2, I take it that you mean she is a (rather than they are) DLQ.

But in the case of no 1, you will probably have lots of drones from psycho laying workers. Not a nice gift to the world.

Sadly, I think prompt termination sounds the best option.
Not all gifts are unalloyed gains!
Maybe we understand better why their former keeper quit and gave them away...

 

[Poly Hive]

Is it really such an odd option to move them elsewhere until sorted?

PH

 

[jimmybee]

why dont you split them in to small nucs add frames from a better colony so they requeen then see what happens, reunite them when there better tempered.

 

[rae]

But in the case of no 1, you will probably have lots of drones from psycho laying workers. Not a nice gift to the world.

Yes. Hadn't thought of that. So in the case of no queen at all, soapy water will be the best bet.

Is it really such an odd option to move them elsewhere until sorted?

I will probably move them to the other side of the field in order to drain off the flyers.

 

[beeme]

2 more weeks

Haven't you got 2 weeks to wait until the offspring from that nasty queen have died? If after 8 weeks from killing her perhaps you missed a sneaky hidden queen cell?

 

[rae]

When we tore down the queen cells after killing her maj, we went though the whole thing twice and destroyed everything that looked remotely like a queen cell. We took out over 20. After the merge with the nuc (a week after tear down), the queen was not immediately killed off - she laid up a few frames of brood, and survived for at least a week. When they killed her they made supersedure cells - that does not suggest that they had one of their own hidden somewhere.