Advice re varroa treatment

[B+.]

Yes, that is exactly what I do.

Glad to hear it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I kind of hope that it's not just the virus but also something to do with the evidence he has documented over the years
CVB

Unfortunately according to Martin his 'records', to put it kindly, leave a lot to be desired.

 

[B+.]

It does not matter in the end whether resistance comes from hygienic behavior, mite mauling, less virulent virus, less invasive mites, all that matters is that the bees develop resistance and/or tolerance.

Lots of people have a very black-and-white view. They seem to regard it as an end point where bees are unaffected by the varroa mite. As though they could turn back the clock to pre-varroa days. Unfortunately, this is impossible. We have to focus on increasing the amount of tolerance through selective breeding. There will always be room for improvement and breeders have to accept that.

 

[Finman]

I am not satisfied because there is always room for improvement.

I have improvement in my beekeeping 54 years. But I have my own strategy. This summer I made one of the biggest innovation.

Without improvements beekeeping is not interesting.

.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

in London it brings only 10 kg.

57kg here from non-swarmed colony; half that from ahem others. I had a dreadful spring, misreading the weather etc. But 50kg is my target per hive.

We need to supplement BIBBA with BIVBA.

 

[Erichalfbee]

For the sake of clarity, the idea is that you only treat if the varroa infestation reaches a threshold. You don't need to intervene if the mite count is below a threshold.
It is actually the German AGT protocol that is used. This is the same protocol that is being adopted by the SmartBees project too.

What threshold do you employ B+?

 

[B+.]

What threshold do you employ B+?

I monitor and select the best for further propagation. Some of you will regard this as callous but I believe it is necessary.
My concern is that any interference can have unforseen consequences and can impact the results in ways we don't understand. I am not saying this is the right approach for everyone but, for me, I have to be as sure as I can be that nothing is influencing the results and that I am seeing what I think I am seeing

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Unfortunately according to Martin his 'records', to put it kindly, leave a lot to be desired.

Yes, I can see that that would be the view of an academic, viewing the records of an amateur. Ron was trying to join forces with an academic from Glasgow for his next bit of research but I don't know whether he got funding for it.

I was hoping to go treatment-free but my daily mite drops on my blue colony were creeping well over 30 per day and I lost my nerve and started the previously documented treatments that resulted in nearly 6000 mites dropping over 3 months. I will never know if that colony would had recovered on its own from that level of infestation. I have not seen any data on natural mite drop from the Swindon Bees or from anybody else who's treatment-free.

B+ and Pargyle - do you monitor natural mite drop and what sort of levels to you get. Does it go up and down out of sync with colony size and was my 30 mites per day in July exceptional in your experience?

CVB

 

[B+.]

B+ and Pargyle - do you monitor natural mite drop and what sort of levels to you get. Does it go up and down out of sync with colony size and was my 30 mites per day in July exceptional in your experience?

Natural mite drop is not a reliable indicator when there is sealed brood in the colony since there will always be reproducing mites in the cells. You can only use this method when they are broodless (e.g. early spring)
Other methods (e.g. sugar shake, alcohol/soapy water wash, etc) can be used at other times of the year when there is brood in the colony, although it is important to take the bee sample from the furthest super from the brood nest as phoretic mites prefer nurse bees - so the results can go up and down, especialy if you take the sample from the wrong place.
In any case, you should look at the pattern of mite development over a period of time to paint a picture of how a particular colony is managing.
A colony with a lot of brood can be expected to have a lot more reproducing mites sealed in the cells than a colony with less brood so, yes, colony size is important too.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I was hoping to go treatment-free but my daily mite drops on my blue colony were creeping well over 30 per day and I lost my nerve and started the previously documented treatments that resulted in nearly 6000 mites dropping over 3 months. I will never know if that colony would had recovered on its own from that level of infestation.
CVB

The answer to that is (HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOO @Finman) not to count mites because what you are treating is not mites but varroosis. i.e., did you see any bees with deformed wings etc.? How was the colony?

OTOH I agree; I have always chickened out so my answer is theoretical. But if you are serious, do not count mites; tolerance of them is the whole point.

 

[Finman]

.
I just estimated in disease chain sector, what means mites/100 bees and colony size.

A) If a colony occupyes one langstroth box, it has 20 000 bees and perhaps 8/10 frames brood.

B) Then you have a colony which has 80 000 bees (8 kg) and it occupyes 6 langstroth boxes. 12 -14 frames brood.


Then in shaking method results are
A has 7 mites / 100 bees = 1400 mites in the whole hive

B has mites 2 / 100 bees = 2 x 80 000 = 1600 mites.

Then what mites have inside brood.

These two hives may have as much free mites and you make a nuc from bigger hive and reduce mite load. Brood amount is about the same.

And then we count that 80 % of mites are under cappings.

In boath cases we can see that mite amount is impossible. It makes not much difference when boath colonies will die.

If the mite amount is half compared to another, it means only one month diffence.
.
.

 

[beeno]

Although it looks like a lot of Ron's success as a non-treater may be down to his breeding bees and mites with the Type B virus, I too admire him for his courage and willingness to "plough a lonely furrow". I kind of hope that it's not just the virus but also something to do with the evidence he has documented over the years about two forms of hygienic behaviour - damage to fallen mites by the bees and infected brood being removed from cells. Maybe they are all connected.

Ron's in the process of doing further work on viruses and he's looking at how or whether he can transfer the behaviour of his bees to "non-hygienic" colonies remote from Swindon - Salisbury. I think. Time is not on his side - he's 85 and he struggles because he's not an academic so his work does not get written up in Nature, etc. Good luck, Ron!

CVB

I would be a bit more impressed with Ron's success as a non-treater if he had had the courage to declare his winter losses.

 

[beeno]

For the sake of clarity, the idea is that you only treat if the varroa infestation reaches a threshold. You don't need to intervene if the mite count is below a threshold.
It is actually the German AGT protocol that is used. This is the same protocol that is being adopted by the SmartBees project too.

Isn't this what we all are supposed to do with the recommended threshold in the UK of 1,000 mites and in the USA 5-6,000 mites (perhaps this explains some of their higher winter losses?)?

Are you at liberty to say what the threshold is under the German AGT protocol and what treatments are to be used?

 

[B+.]

Isn't this what we all are supposed to do with the recommended threshold in the UK of 1,000 mites and in the USA 5-6,000 mites (perhaps this explains some of their higher winter losses?)?

Are you at liberty to say what the threshold is under the German AGT protocol and what treatments are to be used?

I've seen a graph somewhere which shows the recommended intervention point at different times of the year and for different levels of infestation. I saw a German version but I have a feeling that there is a version in English floating around somewhere. I'll look for it - I thought it was on the Kirchhain Bee Institut website (https://www.llh.hessen.de/bieneninstitut-kirchhain.html) but I think they have reorganised their site and it isn't there anymore.
The AGT website is here (http://www.toleranzzucht.de/home/) if anyone wants to do their own research

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was hoping to go treatment-free but my daily mite drops on my blue colony were creeping well over 30 per day and I lost my nerve and started the previously documented treatments that resulted in nearly 6000 mites dropping over 3 months. I will never know if that colony would had recovered on its own from that level of infestation.

CVB

The answer to that is not to count mites because what you are treating is not mites but varroosis. i.e., did you see any bees with deformed wings etc.? How was the colony?

OTOH I agree; I have always chickened out so my answer is theoretical. But if you are serious, do not count mites; tolerance of them is the whole point.

That's it in a nutcase - got nowt to do with mite numbers being reduced/mites being chucked out. It's to do with the bees being able to exist with them.

Prof Martin gave some interesting examples - especially the island off Brazil which is solely populated with European Apis Mellifera - very heavy mite drops, good honey yields and never been treated (also very docile bees BTW)
Another example he gave (can't remember whether it was Brazil or Mexico) he opened up one colony and thought 'if this one isn't treated immediately, it will be dead in a week' - it's still going strong

 

[B+.]

Are you at liberty to say what the threshold is under the German AGT protocol and what treatments are to be used?

Found it:
https://www.llh.hessen.de/downloads...allskontrollbogen Bienenproben_2014-02-20.pdf

 

[Finman]

Are you at liberty to say what the threshold is under the German AGT protocol and what treatments are to be used?

Treatments are tens and they are changing.

1000 mites is a line, after whic bad damages will appear.

August .... 500 mite
September ... 1000 ..... Winter bees are reared
October ... 2000 mites

....4000 ...

 

[For want of a better word]

I've seen a graph somewhere which shows the recommended intervention point at different times of the year and for different levels of infestation. I saw a German version but I have a feeling that there is a version in English floating around somewhere. I'll look for it - I thought it was on the Kirchhain Bee Institut website (https://www.llh.hessen.de/bieneninstitut-kirchhain.html) but I think they have reorganised their site and it isn't there anymore.
The AGT website is here (http://www.toleranzzucht.de/home/) if anyone wants to do their own research

Randy Oliver the Californian beekeeping biologist had some interesting downloadable interactive graphics, shown at his lecture series at the IOM BIBBA Conference this year.



Nos da

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

at the IOM BIBBA Conference

BIVBA, currently trading as BIBBA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I've seen a graph somewhere which shows the recommended intervention point at different times of the year and for different levels of infestation. I saw a German version but I have a feeling that there is a version in English floating around somewhere. I'll look for it - I thought it was on the Kirchhain Bee Institut website (https://www.llh.hessen.de/bieneninstitut-kirchhain.html) but I think they have reorganised their site and it isn't there anymore.
The AGT website is here (http://www.toleranzzucht.de/home/) if anyone wants to do their own research

I looked at the German charts but struggled with it as I don't speak German - you don't happen to have a translation do you?

The only English intervention chart I've seen is on page 33 of the NBU's Managing Varroa - http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=167which where my target of 10 mites per day came from.

I know that monitoring the natural mite drop is not the best method of checking for mites but it is non-invasive and easy to do on a regular basis.

CVB