Advice re varroa treatment

[Finman]

You'll never know until you try. Its a brave step to take though.

If you read other's experiences, you surely know, what to do. And you learn that do not sacrifice your couple of hives for "brave step".



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[Fusion_power]

We still get rabid anti-untreated rants on this side of the pond. Had a guy several months ago who said he didn't want my bees within 7 miles of his treated bees. I replied that I didn't want his mite bombs within 700 miles of my bees. That didn't set will with him, but then I said that mite counts in my bees are lower at any given time of year than in his treated colonies except just after he completes a regimen of treatment.

There is already proof that separate populations of bees develop different resistance mechanisms. Either mechanism may be effective, but not proven yet whether combining them gives better results. There is a dutch study that shows this. You can find it online and it has been posted here before.

It does not matter in the end whether resistance comes from hygienic behavior, mite mauling, less virulent virus, less invasive mites, all that matters is that the bees develop resistance and/or tolerance.

Resistance is defined as the ability of an organism to prevent infection/infestation. Varroa sensitive hygiene is an example of resistance.

Tolerance is defined as the ability of an organism to handle the effects of an infection/infestation. Non-virulant DWV is an example of tolerance.

It is worth noting that many of the treatments being used today show evidence of being compromised by varroa's ability to adapt.

 

[Finman]

We still get rabid anti-untreated rants on this side of the pond. Had a guy several months ago who said he didn't want my bees within 7 miles of his treated bees. I replied that I didn't want his mite bombs within 700 miles of my bees. That didn't set will with him, but then I said that mite counts in my bees are lower at any given time of year than in his treated colonies except just after he completes a regimen of treatment.

There is already proof that separate populations of bees develop different resistance mechanisms. Either mechanism may be effective, but not proven yet whether combining them gives better results. There is a dutch study that shows this. You can find it online and it has been posted here before.

It does not matter in the end whether resistance comes from hygienic behavior, mite mauling, less virulent virus, less invasive mites, all that matters is that the bees develop resistance and/or tolerance.

Resistance is defined as the ability of an organism to prevent infection/infestation. Varroa sensitive hygiene is an example of resistance.

Tolerance is defined as the ability of an organism to handle the effects of an infection/infestation. Non-virulant DWV is an example of tolerance.

It is worth noting that many of the treatments being used today show evidence of being compromised by varroa's ability to adapt.

that all shaken from the sleave on another side of pond.

with your annual 40% hive dead rate I would not ask any help from there.

USA is at least 10 years behind Europe in varroa issue.

Your biggest advisor Randy Oliver is a hobby beekeeper, and he names himself a scientist. What do the numerous universities. Randy read European researches and names himself a scientist.

Greetings to another side of pond.


PS: it is better to notice, that no resistancy has been notices in varroa towards oxalic, thymol or formic acid.

It is easier to varroa to adapt to the hygienic behaviour. Sleep well, and as long you can.
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Look here https://beeinformed.org/2016/05/10/nations-beekeepers-lost-44-percent-of-bees-in-2015-16/

One reason is that US beekeepers are not fond of treating mites.
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[TryingToLetThemBee]

It is worth noting that many of the treatments being used today show evidence of being compromised by varroa's ability to adapt.

Yes but it's the VIRUS that's adapting to create a new equilibrium. So obvious in hindsight.

After 25 years it's about time. But the same collective-action problem. If we all stopped treating and took the losses (JBM suggests above they are now manageable) then the problem would sort itself. But individually no-one is incentivised to do that. Again, thank you to all the non-treaters out there, and the feral colonies that are so much more in evidence, for doing the hard work.

As erichalfbee says, time to not treat some colonies. Indeed, I have treated only 3 this year. The one that was tolerant of 8,000 mites had no drop this year. D'oh!

 

[B+.]

It's not such a lonely furrow - there's a lot of beekeepers I know that are not treating and have been on treatment free regimes for some time - but, the fear of being condemned by other beekeepers as irresponsible

I've made no secret of the fact that I don't treat either. Thats not to say, they are left alone though. Far from it.
As for other peoples opinions, thats all water off a ducks back!

 

[Hivemaker.]

I've made no secret of the fact that I don't treat either.

Have you now started using limited treatments?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have two apiary sites, one has not been treated for several years - nothing, not even what JBM refers to as fairy dust. This apiary has, proportionally, had no more losses than the other site, although I must admit that I thought it would.

Now you need three apiary sites
Move some hives from both the others here, keep them close so they drift
Don't treat?

 

[Finman]

I've made no secret of the fact that I don't treat either. Thats not to say, they are left alone though. Far from it.
As for other peoples opinions, thats all water off a ducks back!

- Basic idea in beekeeping is to produce honey. Why big honey producers do not use mite resistant breeds?

- Mite resistant queens's price is 500 €/piece is pure money. You cannot get profit so much from one hive, that you can buy a new resistant queen into the hive.

- In free mating the resistant queen looses its ability to kill mites.

- Mite resistant hives produce 50% that of normal bees yield. As a profit the difference is hundreds percents.

- in hobby beekeeping a valuable queen looses its value when the daughter starts to lay. Queen introduging losses makes the queen price impossible.

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[B+.]

Have you now started using limited treatments?

No. I was asked to treat the NL line (which would have been pointless unless I treated the others too), but, I've stuck it out so far. It will be interesting to see how these compare to those in other countries that were treated.

 

[Finman]

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One guy send me a private:

Let them kill their bees and I sell them next spring new hives.

with one mite resistant queen price you get 2 new colonies. Is that a good business?

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[Hivemaker.]

No. I was asked to treat the NL line (which would have been pointless unless I treated the others too), but, I've stuck it out so far. It will be interesting to see how these compare to those in other countries that were treated.

Good that you did not have to go along with the Dutch and Prof Brascamps breeding protocol of having to treat.

You did not have to tow the line, as you put it.

 

[Finman]

http://www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/page8.html

Lunden mite resistant queens 500€. Annual honey yield in UK 15 kg/hive. When do you get money to buy a new queen?

Kefyss queens at same price level in France

 

[B+.]

- Mite resistant queens's price is 500 €/piece is pure money. You cannot get profit so much from one hive, that you can buy a new resistant queen into the hive.

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I don't pay anything like that much. Some of the queens were gifts from other breeders, some I paid for though. For example, I only paid the p&p for the VSH queens.
The difference is that you have to be prepared to put in the work to find the colonies worth breeding from (then share the benefit with others in the group). There is too much emphasis on money. It doesn't have to be that way.
As for producing honey, this colony had over 90 Kg above the brood area http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744 so testing stock and honey production can work together.

 

[Finman]

I don't pay anything like that much. Some of the queens were gifts from other breeders, some I paid for though. For example, I only paid the p&p for the VSH queens.
The difference is that you have to be prepared to put in the work to find the colonies worth breeding from (then share the benefit with others in the group). There is too much emphasis on money. It doesn't have to be that way.
As for producing honey, this colony had over 90 Kg above the brood area http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744 so testing stock and honey production can work together.

When we talk about mite resistant bees, question is not about you, how you do it.

You wrote yourself, that you do not sell your queens because you are not satiesfied with your bees.

I know that no one get in UK 90 kg per hive.

I know that UK has so much hives, that if the hive brings in some Place
90 kg in London it brings only 10 kg.

I can move a 150 kg hive to an arid Place, and it brings -15kg. That is what has happened.

Honey comes from pastures, not from hives. And you have written that you do not bother to move your hives to better pastures. That is why we cannot trust on your hives ability to produce honey. And they do not produce more than the pastures allow.


- I believe that you have not lisence to sell your queens because some one else has bred the bees. It is some kind of patent which is usual nowadays in breeding.

Otherwise some make a huge developing work and another harvest the crop

 

[Hivemaker.]

Good that you did not have to go along with the Dutch and Prof Brascamps breeding protocol of having to treat.

You did not have to tow the line, as you put it.

It will be interesting to see how these compare to those in other countries that were treated.

Will that be a good comparison to use in this combined breeding project, their treated, treatment free bees, against yours.

Would of thought all the breeders in the project need to follow the same procedures for any meaningful results to be compared.

 

[B+.]

Good that you did not have to go along with the Dutch and Prof Brascamps breeding protocol of having to treat.

You did not have to tow the line, as you put it.

I do the same testing that others in the group do. My mite count is definitely higher than theirs but I get far more honey. I put this down to environmental factors but, now that I will be testing NL line stock too, I will be able to make a proper comparison.

 

[B+.]

Will that be a good comparison to use in this combined breeding project, their treated, treatment free bees, against yours.

Would of thought all the breeders in the project need to follow the same procedures for any meaningful results to be compared.

I agree.
Personally, I believe none of us should treat but that is just my opinion.
My colonies are definitely at a disadvantage as far as the varroa breeding values are concerned but do better in other categories.

 

[B+.]

Good that you did not have to go along with the Dutch and Prof Brascamps breeding protocol of having to treat.

You did not have to tow the line, as you put it.

For the sake of clarity, the idea is that you only treat if the varroa infestation reaches a threshold. You don't need to intervene if the mite count is below a threshold.
It is actually the German AGT protocol that is used. This is the same protocol that is being adopted by the SmartBees project too.

 

[Hivemaker.]

For the sake of clarity, the idea is that you only treat if the varroa infestation reaches a threshold. You don't need to intervene if the mite count is below a threshold.
It is actually the German AGT protocol that is used.

Yes, that is exactly what I do.

Soft and Bond springs to mind.

 

[B+.]

I know that no one get in UK 90 kg per hive.

I know that UK has so much hives, that if the hive brings in some Place
90 kg in London it brings only 10 kg.

I'm sorry Finman but, in this, you are wrong. Other members of this group have seen my apiaries for themselves.

I am not satisfied because there is always room for improvement.