Advice re varroa treatment

[BeeJayBee]

Now you need three apiary sites
Move some hives from both the others here, keep them close so they drift
Don't treat?

Nope, because neither apiary is being treated this year. Various reasons, but the main one was that conditions didn't work out as I'd expected or the forecasters predicted. Then the heather crop was late coming off so it was too cold to use thymol properly and, although I then planned to use Apivar, I changed my mind and decided to let them get on with it on their own.

We'll see what happens over winter and how any losses during the next season compare with other local (nearby) apiaries that have been treated. I think this is possibly more relevant than comparing our two sites which are several miles apart and so have microclimates that are very different. Even so, it would be unreasonable to suggest that all losses are mite-related.

I was hoping to go treatment-free but my daily mite drops on my blue colony were creeping well over 30 per day and I lost my nerve ...

If you aren't going to treat then there's no need to count mites. If you are going to treat after harvesting a crop and before it's too cold for thymol to be effective then there's no real need to count mites because the decision has already been made. I haven't counted mites for several years, but I have use varroacides during that time.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I looked at the German charts but struggled with it as I don't speak German - you don't happen to have a translation do you?

CVB

I've sussed it out with the aid of Google Translate. The vertical axis is the number of mites per 10grammes of bees - if you assume a bee is 0.1 gm, then it's roughly the % infestation. Above 5% - the red zone - and the chart says the colony is "Very Endangered" In the yellow zone the colony if "Endangered" and the green zone is "Safe for Now" The horizontal axis is the testing time throughout the season. You test for mites and plot your colony's progress on the chart.

If you're not treating, what would you do if you ended up in the red zone - check for deformed wings and other defects, i.e. Varroosis?

CVB

 

[Fusion_power]

what would you do if you ended up in the red zone - check for deformed wings and other defects, i.e. Varroosis?

I've seen deformed wing bees in a colony with very low numbers of varroa. DFW virus affected bees are not necessarily correlated with high mite counts and vice versa.

 

[B+.]

I've sussed it out with the aid of Google

The idea is that you have one of these charts for each colony, plot the mite count throughout the season with at least 3 points, then draw a line through the points to extrapolate when you are likely to need to treat (if at all). The traffic light colours tell you at what point your colony is endangered.
From what I have been told, both formic and oxalic acid is recommended for use in Germany. I don't know what the situation is with other medications , but, I assume it will be the pretty much the same as here.

I can't find the English version of the chart. It is pretty easy to make your own from the chart on the last page though

 

[Finman]

If you're not treating, what would you do if you ended up in the red zone - check for deformed wings and other defects, i.e. Varroosis?

CVB

You are on red zone all the time.
If you do not treat, you will loose your every hive. But do not worry. Next summer new swarms ococcupy your hives.

But if you use "do nothing method", you hives will have different future.

Jenkins mentioned a population which lives on Brasilian isle. It does well with varroa. It has only 16 mites per 100 bees. Such hive is very sick. Population has not developed better resistancy during 16 years.

If you have 2 langstroth boxes bees, the colony has free 6 000 mites and 26 000 mites inside brood. And your yields will become even bigger.
..

 

[B+.]

You are on red zone all the time.

It is a simple tool that helps people predict when they are likely to need to apply treatments.
If you extrapolate the line and find yourself moving into the danger area, you can predict when you should remove supers and apply whatever treatment you prefer.

 

[Finman]

It is a simple tool that helps people predict when they are likely to need to apply treatments.
If you extrapolate the line and find yourself moving into the danger area, you can predict when you should remove supers and apply whatever treatment you prefer.

It is nice game.
.

 

[B+.]

It is nice game.
.

As you wish Finman.

A lot of work has gone into developing simple tools like this to help people plan what to do. Why reinvent the wheel (or do nothing) when the work has already been done? Some people may find it useful though.

 

[Finman]

As you wish Finman.

A lot of work has gone into developing simple tools like this to help people plan what to do. Why reinvent the wheel (or do nothing) when the work has already been done? Some people may find it useful though.

What I have done again?.. I am not ruining anybod's work.

I have teached in this forum mite treatment more than you ever will able to do. During 10 years.

A while ago I revieled that if guys buy hygienic virgins, and they mate openly, the colony will not be hygienic. As an expert, why did you not tell that?
.

 

[Finman]

As you wish Finman.

. Why reinvent the wheel (or do nothing) when the work has already been done? Some people may find it useful though.

I am not quilty to that. In this forum guys invent every week same things, and most invent never.

I only try to lift train on its rails.
.

 

[Fusion_power]

finman, learning to recognize your enemy is half the battle. Encouraging beekeepers to keep track of mite counts is the best way to monitor and understand the developing mite population. Then they can either treat or select other options if available.

 

[Finman]

finman, learning to recognize your enemy is half the battle. Encouraging beekeepers to keep track of mite counts is the best way to monitor and understand the developing mite population. Then they can either treat or select other options if available.

I do not understand what are you talking . My enemy. I do not have enemies. I am laying in my soffa on 60 degree latitude and street is empty. I have some arms in my cottage like Rambo did. Better to stay away from here.

I have taught mite control to UK people 10 years and I have warned about many humbug things . And I have taught to US beeks too mite control, when they really had wrong information what to do.

I have allways encouraged beekeepers to kill directly the mites, and forget the counting.

But even I have forgot the feed back from operation, did the operation was succesfull. It fails often and you see results next autumn. To get feed back, proper counting is usefull.


Biggest humbug is now going when 'do nothing guys' teach mite control. That was the biggest reason that I left Beemaster forum. I taught mite control and insulation. Californian guys said to insulation icon icon and Michael Bush prayed his do nothing method.

Varroa is my friend. It killed Black Bees from Finland 25 years ago.
When varroa is my friend, I have less enemies.
.
I have had mites 35 years. I thank for all help. Mites are making harm to my yields all the time when I try to become rich.

 

[Eyeman]

Nope, because neither apiary is being treated this year. Various reasons, but the main one was that conditions didn't work out as I'd expected or the forecasters predicted. Then the heather crop was late coming off so it was too cold to use thymol properly and, although I then planned to use Apivar, I changed my mind and decided to let them get on with it on their own.

We'll see what happens over winter and how any losses during the next season compare with other local (nearby) apiaries that have been treated. I think this is possibly more relevant than comparing our two sites which are several miles apart and so have microclimates that are very different. Even so, it would be unreasonable to suggest that all losses are mite-related.

BeeJayBee
I hope your not creating a 'varroa bomb' which will explode on those nearby apiaries.
I witnessed first hand what nearby untreated colonies can do to my varroa levels.

 

[Finman]

.
My professional friend tells, that there are lots o beekeepers in the town where he has home. He has difficulties to keep his apiaries alive, even if he does all treatments and even more.

Then he has 80% of his hives 100 km far away.

In the town backround pressure is big. Bees pick mites from surrounding and bring them to own hive. If there are weak colonies, strong colonies rob them, and get a heavy load of mites. Queenless nucs meet easily robbing destiny.

 

[Finman]

BeeJayBee
I hope your not creating a 'varroa bomb' which will explode on those nearby apiaries.
I witnessed first hand what nearby untreated colonies can do to my varroa levels.

That is what happens when Bee Jay lets the hive bee on their own.
.

 

[B+.]

The vertical axis is the number of mites per 10grammes of bees - if you assume a bee is 0.1 gm, then it's roughly the % infestation.

I think you may have missed the explanation under the chart. It recommends that you take a 50g sample of bees and divide the number of mites found by 5 to get the infestation per 10g of bees, This is the vertical axis.
You can get sample pots of various sizes from eBay or a chemists.

The beauty of this chart is that it allows you to continue monitoring when there is brood in the colony using the sugar shake / soapy water method (http://coloss.org/beebook/II/varroa/3/1)

 

[pargyle]

BeeJayBee
I hope your not creating a 'varroa bomb' which will explode on those nearby apiaries.
I witnessed first hand what nearby untreated colonies can do to my varroa levels.

Precisely why many non-treaters do not make it public.
Not treating is not just about leaving them to get on with it Non treating requires more effort and more observation than simply following the conventional mantra. What I am finding is that the levels of varroa in my colonies (measured properly with a sugar roll - not just reliant on counting the natural drop - although that is an indication) are pretty constant at somewhere less than 1 mite per 500 bees - when I see occasional spikes in the drop rate I tend to do a sugar roll but it's surprising how inconclusive the results are. The drop rate seems to bear only a marginal correlation to the measured mite count.

I tend, these days, to take a fairly pragmatic view - if the colony is clearly healthy - brood and no signs of disease - then they must be coping with the varroa levels in the hive. I've not lost a colony over winter (yet) and I think that this is a measure of the bees ability to cope.

There's a lot of other things I do to help the bees - I believe a warm and humid colony (which is what the bees seem to prefer) is the antithesis of what varroa prefer and I don't overtly interfere with what they are doing. Don't infer from this that I don't inspect - I do - but only as far as I need to in order to watch for swarming and check for any signs of disease.

I know I'm a relative newcomer to beekeeping in terms of some of the people I meet in beekeeping circles but I think that, sometimes, there is a resistance to change in the people that have been at it for a long time (not everyone - just some) and this resistance can be passed on on the basis that 'it worked for my mentor and his mentor etc. since 1910 so why should it not work for me ?'. We need to keep minds open and be prepared to try something different.

I'm not averse to treatment - I would if I thought it was necessary. I think OA by sublimation (if and when required) is the best thing in beekeeping since the invention of movable frames - the fact that it is now 'illegal' to treat with the crystalline form of OA is a massive step back. I also find it amazing that so few beekeepers (outside of this forum) actually know about sublimation - let alone use it !

So ... think a bit outside the box - how can you be certain that it was someone else's untreated bees that caused your bees varroa levels to rise - perhaps your bees were the ones susceptible to mite infestation ?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

"Last edited by Hivemaker.; Today at 12:34 PM."

Pete you spoilsport! I had settled in for a classic...

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Non treating requires more effort and more observation than simply following the conventional mantra.

Philip I guess at least during a transition it costs a bit in honey as well. Do you have a measure of that? Feel free to PM me.

 

[B+.]

While we're on the subject, this video gives some relevant background

https://youtu.be/a2vg59Snt6c

Most people have probably seen it before but I reposted it for newbies