Advice Please

[Brian Bush]

Tomorrow I am going to move a hive containing the ladies from hell to one of my out apiaries.
I have 'inherited' this hive from a disillusioned beekeeper.
Whenever inspected they caused mayhem by following a long way and stinging the landlords.
Originally there were two hives but one has not made it through the winter.
They were only inspected twice last year, by me, as a favour to the owner.
There are a lot of bees in the hive.
The hive needs attention, foundation needs replacing and they have received no varroa treatment since 2013.
How would you go about moving them on to new foundation, into new brood box and change the floor? and treat for varroa?
Do I do it all immediately or undertake a staged plan?
They still have 3 full supers on the hive and the whole thing is well and truly stuck together. I have sealed the entrance this evening and strapped the hive ready to move tomorrow.
Helpful suggestions/advice/similar experiences would be most appreciated.
'It is a wise man who learns from his own mistakes, it is an even wiser man who learns from other people's mistakes'

 

[Erichalfbee]

Brave man.
I might.....isolate the brood and queen from the stores in the Spring and take the stores away, looking through them later on, Feed with syrup and Bailey change.
I wouldn't fancy shaking horrid bees onto new frames but maybe if you can wear two suits it is an instant solution.

 

[Madge]

I don't think you should take them immediately to one of your out apiaries. Perhaps you should take them somewhere else and wait until you've checked them out and treated them for varroa.

When you've opened them up you may find that they still have lots of good comb. They might not need a complete change-over of foundation. As a 20-hive owner, I'm sure you'll know what to do.

As for varroa - I would choose Apivar prescribed by a vet.

 

[dn170221]

Wear your suit in the car?
Maybe split them early this season and create 2-3 nucs with different queens.
You probably want to consider getting rid of that queen before her drone count goes up!

Good Luck!

 

[beehive1234]

Obviously you are taking them to the out apiary, probably as it is your only option.
I have a hive just like this.
First inspection will answer a lot of questions. Until then it is all supposition.
I know people say to re-queen, but others say supersedure/daughter queen will be much better.
The colony is good for now, time to think. All the best.
More advice coming soon from skilled bee keepers.

 

[La Folie]

Find the queen and shook swarm 'em. Take the pain like a man!!

 

[Heather]

Maybe do all at once.. but I would move the hive 10' away and let the fliers go to a new clean hive on original site.
Then when numbers reduced, look for that queen and get her out. Cloths over the frames not being looked at will keep numbers down a bit.
Shake each frame onto new hive till all transferred. One frame of brood also transferred to nail the bees in so not absconding. Syrup feed.

Large vodka and orange!

New queen next day in cage.

I have same job to do in Spring, as soon as a queen available, as my colony comes flooding out when I approach and are foul. Unacceptable!!

 

[REDWOOD]

I can handle defensive bees but I will not tolerate followers, those are the kind that usually stinging when you take your suit off. I have had second and third generation queens and they are still defensive, they are not the type of bees you would recommend to a beginner or the faint hearted and the only way to cure the problem is to re queen with a gentle queen from ........

 

[Nige.Coll]

They have already beaten one person into submission.
why why why put those genes out there.

do the guy a favour, remove that bloodline and introduce him to nice bees.
If you do he will be eternally grateful.


edit
he might even help you...

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Tomorrow I am going to move a hive containing the ladies from hell to one of my out apiaries.
I have 'inherited' this hive from a disillusioned beekeeper.
Whenever inspected they caused mayhem by following a long way and stinging the landlords.
Originally there were two hives but one has not made it through the winter.
They were only inspected twice last year, by me, as a favour to the owner.
There are a lot of bees in the hive.
The hive needs attention, foundation needs replacing and they have received no varroa treatment since 2013.
How would you go about moving them on to new foundation, into new brood box and change the floor? and treat for varroa?
Do I do it all immediately or undertake a staged plan?
They still have 3 full supers on the hive and the whole thing is well and truly stuck together. I have sealed the entrance this evening and strapped the hive ready to move tomorrow.
Helpful suggestions/advice/similar experiences would be most appreciated.
'It is a wise man who learns from his own mistakes, it is an even wiser man who learns from other people's mistakes'

Are you basing your estimate of numbers on the inspections you did last year? Present numbers should be very much less, giving better chance of finding her majesty when your inspections start.
My thoughts - Unless you have concerns for brood disease etc. I'd simply move the hive now and do any necessary hacking about when its better weather and there is adequate forage about for the bees to effect comb construction and repairs. OA vapourisation or ApiSTAN spring treatment for varroa will get you through to starting a normal regime in Autumn.
The queen responsible for the bad behaviour needs terminating (i think you already know this) and a gentle queen introducing early in the season. This could be buying in or possibly you could use your other colonies as a source via a frame with good eggs. Ensure all bad gene eggs and larvae cannot be used for emergency queen cells by destruction of cells until time expired and don't let bad gene drones develop either.
Others may have different thoughts?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

First of all move them. Wait until there are queens available, source a good one (you have no other option IMHO - no point faffing around with supersedure/emergency queens, you're just hanging on to the bad genes).
When the new queen queen arrives,purchase a good bottle of single malt whisky (I recommend Jura origin pure or Springbank) then the usual mallarkey - gird loins and grit teeth, new box in original position and wait an hour for population of original hive to thin out, find old queen and decorate the nearest fence post with her.
Shook swarm the rest of the hive into new box, put in new queen in introduction cage with candy covered with a piece of tape so they can't eat it (remove tape in a day or two) the rationale is that as you've 'swarmed' them they'll accept a new queen more readily. Feed them half a gallon of thymolised 1:1 syrup then sit back, wrap yourself around said bottle of scotch congratulating yourself on a job well done whilst thinking of your next step - addressing the varroa issue (one thing you could do to help is remove the first frame of sealed brood which, by this time should be chok-a-blok with varroa).

 

[Arfermo]

Tomorrow I am going to move a hive containing the ladies from hell to one of my out apiaries.

How far do you intend to move them? Three supers plus the BB is more than most would even attempt a move (but then I'm only 80). Incidentally, I always wear double layers and rarely get stung other than when I make a mistake. Thick washing up gloves ex Sxxxxsbxry with gauntlets would make a difference in your circs too.
Whatever else, I'd reduce the weight first by removing at least a couple of the supers. Put the boxes near to the entrance so that any fliers can go back and maybe a bridge (a la Taranov) for the walkers, then when things have quietened down shake the rest into the top of the main hive. Then move them. Later in spring, when you can scrounge a quieter queen (maybe from one of your other hives, leaving then to make a new one?), find old Q and decapitate a la IS, do shook swarm (gets it oven and done with is better than Bailey) and treat with oxalic (sublimated twice best? don't worry about brood as they will soon make more). Next day introduce new Q in a cage after providing a frame of brood and stores. Then rapid feed and let alone for a week unless topping up feeder.

This advice to someone with so many hives seems a bit superfluous but best 'o luck.

 

[Erichalfbee]

(but then I'm only 80).

You surprise me...I always imagined you more youthful

 

[Brian Bush]

First stage complete

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions.
I sealed them in and strapped the hive on Friday and with the help of a 78 yr old neighbour successfully moved them to my out apiary.
The landlord where they were was visibly relieved.
Following your suggestions I am now planning the following course of action.
I am going to ease the supers off and place bee escapes between them to get the bees into the brood box. I think the QE needs replacing. I am going to hunt for and mark the Queen.
I will treat with OA.
As soon as it gets a little warmer I am going to shook swarm them into a new brood box and transfer a frame of open brood. When this frame is sealed I am removing it to remove any residual varroa.
I am going to leave the supers on as their food source for when they are drawing new comb.
Remove the supers when depleted and replace with fresh.
I am determined to cull any drone brood for the sake of myself and neighbours.
I will replace the queen when a nice gentle one becomes available.
The old equipment is getting the flame, disinfectant, clean and repair and refurbish treatment.
I always wear an American bee suit that is totally bee proof but I have taken note of the suggestions and will imbibe large quantities of alcohol to calm my nerves after each visit.
Thank you all once again. It is good to know that many of us are thinking along the same lines.

 

[Arfermo]

You surprise me...I always imagined you more youthful

I never did bother to act my age. Grandkids with their O's, A's and the rest think I'm pretty thick too despite getting into one of the best Grammar schools in 1945!!! Such is life as Ned Kelly said at his execution.

 

[midnight sun]

Three supers plus the BB is more than most would even attempt a move (but then I'm only 80).

Still feisty though.......g'lad you! LOL

 

[beehive1234]

Funny, I thought we were saying feisty was bad?

Suppose honey in supers are the cause of aggression. From Nico..... 'whats its name' pesticides?

 

[midnight sun]

Funny, I thought we were saying feisty was bad?

Suppose honey in supers are the cause of aggression. From Nico..... 'whats its name' pesticides?

No.....Feisty is good.........it makes surviving another night worth getting out of bed for!

 

[Brian Bush]

I have faced the devil ones

I moved this hive to my apiary 3 weeks ago. It contained 3 supers of stores and was very heavy. I could not break it apart so my elderly neighbour and I manhandled it.
Today a colleague and I managed to open it up. It was cool and I applied lots of smoke and the ladies were well behaved.
There were a lot of bees in the hive. There was no QE and where frames in the supers were missing wild comb was holding the whole lot firmly together.
There was patches of brood in the BB but surprisingly not in the supers.
I transferred one piece of old comb with brood to a clean BB and then carefully shook the bees into the box. We cleaned up the supers that contained many bees and placed one heavy super on the BB. I then inserted a QE and placed the other full super above. On the crown board I placed the pieces of full wild comb for them to clean up.
Despite diligent searching we were unable to find the queen. I will look again in 10 days or so to see where she is laying. The hive has so much stores that I feel confident that they will draw the new foundation in the BB, assuming, of course I have not killed the queen by mistake. I will need to give a varroa treatment ASAP as there is little brood at present and we spotted a couple of bees with DWV

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have to say it - you've taken a very big risk there IMHO- this early in the year is not a good time to conduct a shook swarm - you say there was little brood in there, the remaining bees will be the winter bees, their wax glands will have atrophied, no new bees to take over, they should be concentrating on brooding now not comb drawing, and if your weather is anything like here - not very condusive to wax production.