Advice please

[starcana]

Just went to my two hives in the hope of doing first proper inspection, clean up and taking off any remaining fondant and replacing with 1:1 syrup.

Well smoker went out and couldn't relight and there were bees still munching away happily in the fondant bags on both hives wbc) Both were on the dreg ends of first fondant bag and some bees munching on the second also that I put on about a month ago (one each covering each hole of crown board).

There were also bees on every frame, and what looked (in my quick glance, they weren't happy) like plenty of brood on about eight frames, with cells on the bottom of one or two frames (which worried me a bit).

So, lots of info there, but my question? Well as I saw the number of bees (millions, not literally)(and was very pleased as first time I've got two colonies thru the winter)'my instinct was, I'll need to super very soon. I left the fondant on as they were still munching, didnt put the syrup on.

Yes, my question, should I leave them a few days to settle again then take the fondant off and put supers on?

It's difficult this beekeeping lark isn't it and I don't think I'm very good at it. I'm in my third year, done the course but still need reassurance! Thanks.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You obviously need to go back in (with a lit smoker next time!) and do a thorough appraisal - if you have eight frames full of brood then it's time to think about supering,but until these bees begin to emerge there's not going to be a population explosion - at the same time what's the forage like in your area now? if there's no forage, there'll be nothing to put into the supers.The forage situation also goes for the fondant, if there's no forage they'll need something to feed on and feed the brood.
On face value though it sounds like time to remove fondant and get your hive set up for the summer!

 

[Swarm]

My advice would be to get your smoker alight and make sure it is well lit, then look again. You mention cells on the bottom of one or two frames, I'm assuming you mean queen cells? If so you need to do AS before they swarm on you.
With brood on eight frames, now would be a good time to add a super because they need room (judging by your description of their numbers) but you need to make sure if any queen cells are charged and act.
Good luck and congrats on the condition of your bees btw.

 

[mbc]

I agree with the above- go back in with a lit smoker and go back to basics;
-do they have enough stores to last until the next inspection ? (if so, then taking off the fondant is an option)
-do they have a laying queen and brood in all stages and no charged queen cells ?
-do they have enough space ? bearing in mind each full frame of sealed brood will produce enough bees to fill three frames worth of space once hatched.
As for forage, I imagine cornwall is ahead of here, and we have willows, blackthorn and dandelion aplenty, just waiting for a bit of serious warmth, so supering is certainly an option for any hives that need the space.

 

[starcana]

What a lovely thing to say Swarm when I'm feeling such an idiot (congrats etc).thank you.
But I've never done an AS (not least cos I've never found my queens)!!!read all about it of course.
But what about my convoluted question re fondant/syrup. Does it matter if I leave fondant on and never get round to putting syrup on before I need to super?

Will def have a good look with lit smoker at weekend.
BTW I'm in West Cornwall so lots of lovely spring flowers out but not necessarily bee-choice flowers!

 

[starcana]

Cross posted with MBC. Thanks for that. Back to basics it is. Nice clear answer.

 

[Swarm]

You're welcome.
Personally, I wouldn't give them syrup. Just make sure they have stores, they sound as if they are doing well but I'm concerned.
Did you see queen cells? If so, don't wait til the weekend!!

 

[itma]

... like plenty of brood on about eight frames, with cells on the bottom of one or two frames (which worried me a bit).
...

You need *urgently* to determine whether or not those "cells" were actually 'charged' - wet with a lava in there - queen cells.

If so, time is of the essence.

You'd need to be doing an artificial swarm or else you'll be trying to catch a real one!

Patience is an asset in every aspect of beekeeping --- EXCEPT where queen cells are concerned.

Have you downloaded and studied the Welsh Queen Cell booklet?



/ Get the fondant off. Don't think about syrup. You have an urgent priority.


// LINK for you -> www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

 

[Haughton Honey]

Q-Q-S-S-H​

​

QUEENRIGHT - is the colony Queen-right (eggs/young larvae)?

QUEEN CELLS - are there any present? If so, perform an AS.

STORES - are there enough? Pollen - very important as it feeds baby bees. Carbohydrates (honey/nectar) - feeds young larvae.

SPACE - how much room has the queen got to lay (consider putting on a super to relieve congestion)?

HEALTHY - does the colony look disease-free and healthy?

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

What are you using for smoker fuel, that won't stay alight. Get this bit working then you will have more conference to get in there and inspect your hives.
I use Snow Flake wood shavings, the sort you use for your pets. Other smoker fuels are available....

 

[Cazza]

But what about my convoluted question re fondant/syrup. Does it matter if I leave fondant on and never get round to putting syrup on before I need to super?

QUOTE]

The question to ask yourself is, do they need feeding? If yes then feed but if you really need to super I suspect the answer should be no.
In which case, take the fondant off.

The cell question is much more pressing.
cazza

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But what about my convoluted question re fondant/syrup. Does it matter if I leave fondant on and never get round to putting syrup on before I need to super?

No it doesn't - I kept fondant on until they built up last year - didn't bother with syrup

 

[starcana]

Update from Starcanawww

Thanks so much for all the good advice last week. Well, all looking ok. Did a full inspection today, couldn't do it earlier as suggested but spent weekend worrying about them!!!! Smoker working a great with firelighters from Thornes.

Had spare hive set up ready(national although my others are WBCs - does it matter?) and read everything there is to know on doing an AS when you haven't spotted the queen (spotted as in seen).

Hive 1 - brood, stores, larvae and pollen on both sides of at least 8 frames. Bees still inside and munching on the fondants bags on crown board. About one sixth of second fondant bag left.

Hive 2 - sealed brood, stores, larvae and pollen on both sides of around eight frames and the cells on the bottom of two frames do not appear to me to be 'queen shaped (peanuts)' more an extension of the sort of dark cells on the frames. Still munching on fondant pretty much as above.

So left all as it is after a cursory clean up. Question now is:

Didn't want to take fondant off while they're still munching
Not masses of pollen but some
Should I super or brood and a half as they are obviously both pretty strong colonies. BTW No sign of queen cells on frames either.

Weather here is pleasant, not hot and light winds and that looks to be the forecast.
Thanks so much all you lovely knowledgeable people.

 

[Heather]

Bugger the smoker- just cover brood frames with a towel and slowly fold back exposing each frame- maybe a second towel to cover those already seen...Sometimes so busy trying to keep smoker alight that you cannot get on with the job in hand. I rarely use smoker- if bees calm-why?? Only use on rude bees!

As said, if queen cells then maybe split the colony- BUT if just extending the brood frame with ordinary cells- not extended Queen cells -then put a super on top of the brood box- no QE there for a few days to encourage them to go up. Once they start to draw the super, then put a QE in between the brood box and super- with QE slats on opposite way to frames(Unless WBC where you cannot)

Well done on the hives- so many have lost them this Spring.

Dump the fondant now and a little 1:1 syrup. They will take if nec when stuck in on wet day. They are bringing in nectar so don't fill hive with superfluous food

 

[itma]

...
Had spare hive set up ready(national although my others are WBCs - does it matter?) ...

Hive 1 - brood, stores, larvae and pollen on both sides of at least 8 frames. Bees still inside and munching on the fondants bags on crown board. About one sixth of second fondant bag left.

Hive 2 - sealed brood, stores, larvae and pollen on both sides of around eight frames and the cells on the bottom of two frames do not appear to me to be 'queen shaped (peanuts)' more an extension of the sort of dark cells on the frames. Still munching on fondant pretty much as above.
...

Good, but you need to be noting more!

The relative importance of these varies through the year, but you need to be looking for
Space - empty drawn comb near the brood nest
Stores - how much? (Right now, a full frame or two should be fine - and what you see feeds back into the decision as to whether or not they need feeding)
Queenright? (Queen, or eggs or at minimum unsealed brood spotted)

And you keep an eye open for QCs and the possibility of disease. Management by exception - spotting the unusual.

"8 frames" filled with something implies (WBC 10 frames) only two frames (probably the outer ones) mainly empty.
If the 8 frames filled is largely brood, you should be thinking of supering.
But if they are largely stores, then you definitely shouldn't be feeding, and you'll need to keep a particularly close watch for QCs - "brood blocking" (with excess stores) is the risk there.

// National as spare, no problem (same frames), but you may need a modified coverboard (or similar gasket), and maybe also to do something strange regarding a roof, if/when you try and recombine after the artificial swarm procedure.

 

[theeggman]

As a relative 'newbie' may I say thanks on behalf of other newbies to the beeks who have responded to this thread in a helpful and polite manner.

Tim again.

 

[starcana]

Yes Eggman, I am very grateful for all the helpful replies. Will go with the supering without QE idea for a few days but I'm reluctant to take off the fondant while there still munching away inside the bags. What are the implications of this??

 

[drex]

well done. I would suggest that you do a specific inspection on a good day, in order to find and mark your queen. Do it now while you still have relatively few bees, and she will be easier to spot, especially if as you say you are giving her another box to potentially run around in. It will make life easier for you in future. Bear in mind that if adding "honey supers" while there is still feed in the hive, you run the risk of having sugar in your honey crop

 

[Moggs]

If you have an abundance of natural forage (and it sounds as if you do) then encourage bees to get out and enjoy the spring sunshine. Better to get them going with and storing nectar than chobbling fondant! I would remove it if you can be certain of plentiful incoming supplies, unless there are clear indications of a deficit of food stores in the combs. As with many things beekeeping, it's a judgment call!