A tragic split

[Beagle23]

This post continues from a related one I made earlier, which covered my last desperate attempt to save a situation. I'll leave you to decide which of the problem I list are due to my errors and which are just bad luck.

So a few weeks ago I carried out a split. 3 frames of bees with brood, stores and a QC into a wooden NUC.
A few days later the young queen hatched and I discovered that one of her wings was deformed, over the next day she was either killed by her sisters or went outside and was predated.
So I took a frame containing newly laid eggs from one of my hives and added it to the NUC. Hey Presto, an emergency QC is soon present and I breathed a sigh of relief.
Two weeks later the new queen hasn't hatched. There are still plenty of bees in the NUC and I decide if I can get a queen in there quickly then there's a chance to make something of it. I ordered one online...it took 5 days to arrive!
The new, mated queen arrived this morning and when I went to put her in the NUC I was shocked to see just how much the bee population had reduced. Stores were both present and being brought in by foragers, but ants were present in numbers and the bees were down to a couple of hundred in number.
I judged that the situation was probably already unredeemable, but as a last desperate throw of the dice I took a frame of brood and bees from one of my hives and added them. What followed was a mass skirmish and the newly added bees returning to their home leaving a number of dead bees behind them.
By this stage the number of bees in the NUC was down to no more than about 80, plus those that were out foraging.
I decided to put the new queen and her six attendants into the NUC (in their travel cage), partly because I had nowhere else to put her.
A couple of hours later 5 of the 6 attendants were dead, but the queen was still going and chirping away.
At this point I just didn't know what to do but I decided I may be able to save the queen and if I took her away and thought things through another solution may prevent itself.
As I lifted the cage it quite literally came apart in my hand. The sole surviving attendant fell into the NUC and the queen immediately took wing and disappeared into the air.

A few minutes and choice swear words later, two things happened. First, the queen reappeared and I caught her in a honey jar. Second, I noticed that the sole surviving queen's attendant was still alive and interacting safely with other bees. Concluding that the queen's pheromone may have done its thing in the few short hours she had been in the NUC I decided to try to add her. So I unscrewed the jar and put the top over the NUC entrance, after some hesitation she crawled inside.

30 minutes later I took a quick peek inside and found the old bees clustered around her and she seemed fine. But it was also painfully evident that there were not enough bees, no more than a hundred or so. There's unhatched brood, there are stores, but there just aren't enough bees to do all the jobs required.

So that's where we are. a new queen present but not enough bees to raise and feed the young, tend the cells and the queen. It's been an interesting but frustrating experience. I should have listened to Napoleon's philosophy of never reinforcing failure

 

[E&MBees]

I’m only a beginner, but would it be possible to shake some nurse bees into the nuc from another hive? Or would they fight with the existing bees?

 

[MikeWade]

I’m only a beginner, but would it be possible to shake some nurse bees into the nuc from another hive? Or would they fight with the existing bees?

Take2 frames of sealed brood plus bees and 1 of feed from another colony and unite them using newspaper to the queen and handful of bees. Bròod will hatch then you'll have 6 frames of bees to look after the new brood when the queen lays

 

[enrico]

Take as many frames of bees as you like and add them with air freshener
E

 

[jeff33]

With only 2 hives I don't know how many frames of broods/bees you can still take without weakening those 2 hives? Is the frame of brood in the nuc about to emerge or still a long way off? If you don't have enough bees to keep the brood warm you will end-up with chilled brood and hardly any new bees emerging.

Personally I would bank that mated queen in a mating nuc with the remaining bees and a few more and dismantle the nuc which is deemed to fail. If you are sure that adding more frames of brood + bees is not going to weaken your other hives than as above, unite.

It seems to me that most of the bees in the nuc were flying bees which is why it deplated so quickly. The more frames of brood you take from the other hives the older the workforce will get in these hives which will weaken them but also change their temper.

 

[madasafish]

Take2 frames of sealed brood plus bees and 1 of feed from another colony and unite them using newspaper to the queen and handful of bees. Bròod will hatch then you'll have 6 frames of bees to look after the new brood when the queen lays

Sealed is no good.. sealed and emerging brood #...is what is required.. Conceivably sealed brood may just have been capped and will require two weeks to emerge...which the existing bees may be unable to keep warm enough.

Don't ask me how I know...bitter experience..


# dark cappings and bees actually emerging from it is best.

Take as many frames of bees as you like and add them with air freshener
E

I agree.

The OP needs more bees NOW to keep the hive alive and have a chance of raising young...

 

[Beagle23]

Thanks for the answers.

I have taken action this morning, whether it is the right action remains to be see.

Checking on the queen first thing I found her feeding and being attended by the remnants of the original split, no more than 20. I don't have the setup or the time to try the newspaper approach (no spare boxes), what I do have is two very strong colonies....so I've improvised. I manged to get the queen and her new attendants into a honey jar with a perforated top. I've added some fondant and a tiny amount of unused comb and put the jar at the bottom of the nuke.
I then took three frames from my hives with as much emerging brood as I could find and then boxed them up and closed the entrance. If the queen doesn't die from the stress of all this messing around I hope I can release her on Sunday.

What do you think?

 

[E&MBees]

Thanks for the answers.

I have taken action this morning, whether it is the right action remains to be see.

Checking on the queen first thing I found her feeding and being attended by the remnants of the original split, no more than 20. I don't have the setup or the time to try the newspaper approach (no spare boxes), what I do have is two very strong colonies....so I've improvised. I manged to get the queen and her new attendants into a honey jar with a perforated top. I've added some fondant and a tiny amount of unused comb and put the jar at the bottom of the nuke.
I then took three frames from my hives with as much emerging brood as I could find and then boxed them up and closed the entrance. If the queen doesn't die from the stress of all this messing around I hope I can release her on Sunday.

What do you think?

Have they got ventilation so they don’t get too hot?

 

[Beagle23]

Have they got ventilation so they don’t get too hot?

Yep, plenty of ventilation. My only concerns at the moment is water for the queen, how safe she is at the hands of her new attendants and whether keeping the bees locked up are likely to make them less willing to accept the queen when I release her

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks for the answers.

I have taken action this morning, whether it is the right action remains to be see.

Checking on the queen first thing I found her feeding and being attended by the remnants of the original split, no more than 20. I don't have the setup or the time to try the newspaper approach (no spare boxes), what I do have is two very strong colonies....so I've improvised. I manged to get the queen and her new attendants into a honey jar with a perforated top. I've added some fondant and a tiny amount of unused comb and put the jar at the bottom of the nuke.
I then took three frames from my hives with as much emerging brood as I could find and then boxed them up and closed the entrance. If the queen doesn't die from the stress of all this messing around I hope I can release her on Sunday.

What do you think?

You seem to have turned this into quite a mess (not helped by some ropey advice thrown into the pot.)
Too much has been done with not enough thought, it's taken me all morning to get my head around it all.
I really would like to know who make these introduction cages that disintegrat at the slightest touch so I can steer well clear.

Firstly, just shutting in a load of bees and brood is going to get you nowhere, apart from a boxful of cooked bees.
A newspaper unite or piling a shedful of bees on top of a lone queen with a quick squirt of febreeze likewise.
Personally, I would be tempted to rewind the whole thing and start again with a plan in place but that would entail getting the queen, a few attendants back in an introduction cage or into an apidea or Kieler nuc and put to one side then returning the random frames of emerging brood back to their original hives, settled down to start again, but I doubt you have the luxury of doing it.

First of all you need to get yourself a decent queen introduction cage with a good chunk of candy plug, or repair the one you have, or make one if you have any spare varroa mesh around and put her in that eventually (if the attendant bees (how many are there now) are still caring for her, put them in as well.
The new nuc you have made up, you need to open it and let the bees fly.
if you're lucky your jury rigged jampot introduction effort may just work

 

[Beagle23]

You seem to have turned this into quite a mess (not helped by some ropey advice thrown into the pot.)
Too much has been done with not enough thought, it's taken me all morning to get my head around it all.
I really would like to know who make these introduction cages that disintegrat at the slightest touch so I can steer well clear.

Firstly, just shutting in a load of bees and brood is going to get you nowhere, apart from a boxful of cooked bees.
A newspaper unite or piling a shedful of bees on top of a lone queen with a quick squirt of febreeze likewise.
Personally, I would be tempted to rewind the whole thing and start again with a plan in place but that would entail getting the queen, a few attendants back in an introduction cage or into an apidea or Kieler nuc and put to one side then returning the random frames of emerging brood back to their original hives, settled down to start again, but I doubt you have the luxury of doing it.

First of all you need to get yourself a decent queen introduction cage with a good chunk of candy plug, or repair the one you have, or make one if you have any spare varroa mesh around and put her in that eventually (if the attendant bees (how many are there now) are still caring for her, put them in as well.
The new nuc you have made up, you need to open it and let the bees fly.
if you're lucky your jury rigged jampot introduction effort may just work

Thanks but I think that's a bit harsh.

If the first queen had hatched without the damaged wing, if the emergency queen had been a success, if the ordered queen hadn't arrived 4 days late - these things were out of my control and I had to react accordingly.

I'm not worried about the bees overheating, the NUC is well ventilated and away from sunlight. And if I open it up and 'let them fly' I expect I'll be in the same situation I was in yesterday with all of the newly added bees flying back to their original hive, leaving more unattended brood.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree with JBM. Start again
Rescue the queen with a few attendants
Put the brood back where it came from. Shake the bees off first.
Shake the rest of the bees out to find a home somewhere and make a proper nuc up for your new queen. Two frames of emerging or sealed brood one of stores one drawn com and one foundation.
Shake a whole super of bees into it and move somewhere else in the apiary.
Feed

 

[E&MBees]

Thanks but I think that's a bit harsh.

If the first queen had hatched without the damaged wing, if the emergency queen had been a success, if the ordered queen hadn't arrived 4 days late - these things were out of my control and I had to react accordingly.

I'm not worried about the bees overheating, the NUC is well ventilated and away from sunlight. And if I open it up and 'let them fly' I expect I'll be in the same situation I was in yesterday with all of the newly added bees flying back to their original hive, leaving more unattended brood.

Apologies if I have caused problems with the other respondents, that wasn't my intention.

 

[drex]

No blame. Mishaps happen with bees, plus they have a mind of their own. The solution is what you do about it. I must say what you have done is rather messy. I think Dani's suggestion would have been my way out of this. Hope it works out for you, whatever you decide.

 

[Swarm]

Thanks but I think that's a bit harsh.

If the first queen had hatched without the damaged wing, if the emergency queen had been a success, if the ordered queen hadn't arrived 4 days late - these things were out of my control and I had to react accordingly.

I'm not worried about the bees overheating, the NUC is well ventilated and away from sunlight. And if I open it up and 'let them fly' I expect I'll be in the same situation I was in yesterday with all of the newly added bees flying back to their original hive, leaving more unattended brood.

I don't think he was harsh. When your queen emerged with a damaged wing, bump her off and reunite them back with the colony.
Consider starting again but don't leave it to a nuc to raise a queen from emergency cells, not unless it's bulging with bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks but I think that's a bit harsh.

If the first queen had hatched without the damaged wing, if the emergency queen had been a success, if the ordered queen hadn't arrived 4 days late - these things were out of my control and I had to react accordingly.

I'm not worried about the bees overheating, the NUC is well ventilated and away from sunlight. And if I open it up and 'let them fly' I expect I'll be in the same situation I was in yesterday with all of the newly added bees flying back to their original hive, leaving more unattended brood.

If If If, if my auntie had nuts she would have been called David John
If the queen had emerged with a damaged wing,it was time to squish her, shake out and start again
Putting in a frame of eggs and hoping that worker bees already old and past their sellby date would raise a new queen was a triumph of optimism over realism.
Time to shake out and start again.
Dumping a load of fresh 'alien' bees onto an (admitted) weak nuc was always going to end in carnage.
Time to shake out and start again.

Yes, the queen emerging deformed was bad luck, but as for the rest being out of your control?
Out of control maybe, a series of kneejerk measures which hadn't really been thought through

You cannot just coop a load of bees up and hope they will function normally.
If you have done it properly (two or more frames of emerging brood - with bees, then shake in two or three frames full of bees) then yes, some will fly back to the mother colony, but more than enough nurse bees will have stayed to tend the brood.

All we can do now is to try and find a solution and save wasting a perfectly good bought in queen.

I can't believe the introduction cage is smashed to pieces, what type is it? try and jury rig it, it's only needed for one use.
Get the queen back in there with half a dozen or so attendants, put them safely to one side, in the dark, in the cool (but not cold)
shake the bees off the frames of brood (in front of your other hives) shake the other bees out in front of the hives.
Tomorrow, make up a proper nuc of bees, two or three frames of emerging brood, three frames of bees shaken in, a frame of stores or, if none available, put a feeder on.
Plug the entrance with a loose wad of fresh, green grass, Leave them settle for a few minutes, put the queen in, candy plug protected and leave them alone for a few days.
After a few days, uncover the candy.

 

[Beagle23]

I don't think he was harsh. When your queen emerged with a damaged wing, bump her off and reunite them back with the colony.
Consider starting again but don't leave it to a nuc to raise a queen from emergency cells, not unless it's bulging with bees.

At that stage it was bulging with bees

 

[Beagle23]

If If If, if my auntie had nuts she would have been called David John
If the queen had emerged with a damaged wing,it was time to squish her, shake out and start again
Putting in a frame of eggs and hoping that worker bees already old and past their sellby date would raise a new queen was a triumph of optimism over realism.
Time to shake out and start again.
Dumping a load of fresh 'alien' bees onto an (admitted) weak nuc was always going to end in carnage.
Time to shake out and start again.

Yes, the queen emerging deformed was bad luck, but as for the rest being out of your control?
Out of control maybe, a series of kneejerk measures which hadn't really been thought through

You cannot just coop a load of bees up and hope they will function normally.
If you have done it properly (two or more frames of emerging brood - with bees, then shake in two or three frames full of bees) then yes, some will fly back to the mother colony, but more than enough nurse bees will have stayed to tend the brood.

All we can do now is to try and find a solution and save wasting a perfectly good bought in queen.

I can't believe the introduction cage is smashed to pieces, what type is it? try and jury rig it, it's only needed for one use.
Get the queen back in there with half a dozen or so attendants, put them safely to one side, in the dark, in the cool (but not cold)
shake the bees off the frames of brood (in front of your other hives) shake the other bees out in front of the hives.
Tomorrow, make up a proper nuc of bees, two or three frames of emerging brood, three frames of bees shaken in, a frame of stores or, if none available, put a feeder on.
Plug the entrance with a loose wad of fresh, green grass, Leave them settle for a few minutes, put the queen in, candy plug protected and leave them alone for a few days.
After a few days, uncover the candy.

Thanks for taking the time to write that out. The cage was one of those standard green plastic ones (not sure what the technical term is), shaped like a matchbox with a sliding lid. One of the runners was damaged and the lid just fell away rather than sliding off.

I called a guy who's been in the beekeeping game for 20 odd years to buy a queen off of him and he told me that a bought queen wasn't necessary and a frame of newly laid eggs would suffice. That's the thing with beekeeping everyone 's an expert (i exempt myself from that)...until you meet the next expert

 

[enrico]

Well I still stand by what I said.... You had a queen with a few bees that had accepted her in a nuc with brood but not enough bees to cope with the brood. In my eyes the colony just needs more nurse bees. You could have added a two or three frames of bees with magic spray. It would have added enough strength to the colony to survive and build. But I accept that there are other solutions too.
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The cage was one of those standard green plastic ones (not sure what the technical term is), shaped like a matchbox with a sliding lid. One of the runners was damaged and the lid just fell away rather than sliding off.

Simple to fix then, you can hold it between thumb and palm to slide it closed when the queen and workers go in, then stick it with a bit of tape to hold it all together for the next step.