A National-Dadant beehive ?

[Little John]

In his book 'Proper Studies' (1927), Aldous Huxley wrote: "For most people, nothing which is contrary to any system of ideas with which they have been brought up since childhood can possibly be reasonable." And as an example of this, it was as a schoolboy that I started beekeeping in WBC hives and, on return to beekeeping several decades later with single-brood Modified British Nationals: the intensive management of which I continued to assume was an essential component of the craft.

In due course I built several Long Hives containing around twenty standard 14"x9" brood frames only to discover that these hives also required intensive management if all frames were to be employed.
At one point I converted a KTBH into a more useful framed Dual-Long Hive, each half of which contained sixteen 14"x12" frames - the colonies within which duly flourished - and (significantly ?) within which all frames were utilised without any beekeeper adjustment. The only negative aspect being that sixteen of these 'brood and a third' frames were insufficient to support the size of the substantial colonies which developed. And so it began to dawn on me that the use of larger numbers of deeper frames was more desirable - possibly around twenty 14"x12" or 14"x14" frames (the latter being the size of a 'brood and a half' ... and having the same comb area as that of a Langstroth Jumbo, as used in the Modified Dadant hive).

And so I've recently begun an experiment running eleven 14"x14" frames above a British National footprint, by the simple expedient of placing a Shallow (Super) Box above a Deep (Brood) Box.
Should this format prove satisfactory over the course of two seasons, then I'll transfer them to a Deep Long Hive large enough to accomodate 20 such frames, and adjust the size of that box appropriately with a thermal divider.

At the time of writing, the transfer of a selected colony from 9" to 14" deep frames is proceeding extremely well, and without any problems having arisen.

Should anyone show interest in this, I'll post some pictures over in the DIY/ Hive-Construction section.

LJ


Relevant links:

http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/Chapter-IV-The-Hive-Controversy.html

Dadant - System of Beekeeping, 1920: https://archive.org/download/cu31924003428897

 

[For want of a better word]

Did not Aldous Huxley also wrote " Rolling in the mire is not a way to get clean" !

My own experiences with 14 x 12frames is that although totally suitable for the highly prolific boom and bust hybrids, they are too big and heavy to handle for elderly or frail beekeepers.... who can struggle with a 11 frame standard brood box packed to the gunnells with bees as it is!
#
I have experimented with the TBH no honey hives and various derivatives Darlington Hives.. Long Coffins etc... bees seem to draw down comb to a specific size
I now only have one BioBeees/ Natural beekeeperer/Chandler/Totness design going for old times sake... and to show enthusiastic top barreres what they do.

Yeghes da

 

[Obee1]

Little John
Very interesting. I am a newish beek and started on standard nationals which very promptly became double brood box hives. I didn't use a QE last year and the colonies quite often used the first super too. However- lots of frames to check and lots of heavy lifting. This year I moved two colonies into 14/12 with QE and I am beginning to think they are a bit small for the brood nest. I think I will remove the QE and let them expand as they feel fit

I really like the 14 x14 idea though. Only problem is having to make your own side bars for the frames- and hoping one never needs to move the hive as that would be a really heavy box to lift unless there are two Beeks. hopefully I have a few years left before I'm totally frail and decrepit.

 

[Tremyfro]

I am running a number of beehaus...which use the 14x12 frames. I have BS nationals too...although the remaining one is destined to be moved to a beehaus. I agree that the frames are heavier but once you have mastered the technique of lifting and turning them ...the management is easy. In lots of instances, during inspections, it is only necessary to slide the frame along the rail until you reach a frame that you want to inspect. The supers are half size so only 5 frames in them....again easier to lift off. I have made some insulating blocks to use as panels in the beehaus. This means I can put a small nuc size colony in the hive and slowly add frames as necessary. No need to disturb them by rehiving as the brood nest grows.
I do agree that using conventional brood boxes ....that if you had to move them to do a manipulation...it would be a struggle. The only way I could do that would be to decant some of the frames. In the beehaus...swarm manipulations are done by moving frames sideways...so far less trouble.
Using vertical boxes gives much more choice in manipulations...but the lifting is a bugbear.

 

[Little John]

My own experiences with 14 x 12frames is that although totally suitable for the highly prolific boom and bust hybrids, they are too big and heavy to handle for elderly or frail beekeepers.... who can struggle with a 11 frame standard brood box packed to the gunnells with bees as it is!

This of course is the totally bogus argument put forward by those Americans whose favour Langstroth 8-frame Mediums over 10-frame Deeps - which is that the smaller boxes are much lighter to lift - one consequence of their use being outrageously tall stacks of boxes which I suspect has more to do with 'my willie is bigger than yours' thinking, than efficient beekeeping. Deep, large volume hives require NO lifting of boxes whatsoever - they are intended as either static hives, or to be left on a trailer - and yet this argument is regularly trotted out against them ...

I have experimented with the TBH no honey hives and various derivatives Darlington Hives.. Long Coffins etc...

The Darlington Hive and Long Hives have nothing whatsoever to do with Top Bar Beekeeping - other than a passing resemblence to box shape - so I don't know why you mention this - other than perhaps to support a poor argument ?

LJ

 

[Cussword]

This of course is the totally bogus argument put forward by those Americans whose favour Langstroth 8-frame Mediums over 10-frame Deeps - which is that the smaller boxes are much lighter to lift - one consequence of their use being outrageously tall stacks of boxes which I suspect has more to do with 'my willie is bigger than yours' thinking, than efficient beekeeping. Deep, large volume hives require NO lifting of boxes whatsoever - they are intended as either static hives, or to be left on a trailer - and yet this argument is regularly trotted out against them ...

LJ

I'm sure that 'hopit was talking about the frames being heavy, not the boxes. As someone who can at times struggle with standard national frames, I understand his point.

You were perhaps ready for a statement against your idea and misunderstood him?

 

[chrisb]

" I suspect has more to do with 'my willie is bigger than yours' thinking "

 

[chrisb]

Yep frames, a lang deep full of honey is some weight about 8 Lb id think

 

[REDWOOD]

My thoughts are bees like to move and expand upwards rather than sideways, personally I would rather do what bees want and put another BB on top

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

ooh look - a wheel, but square, or maybe rectangular

 

[Finman]

Jesus said: Only sick needs healing.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

ooh look - a wheel, but square, or maybe rectangular

succinct

 

[Little John]

I'm sure that 'hopit was talking about the frames being heavy, not the boxes. As someone who can at times struggle with standard national frames, I understand his point.

You were perhaps ready for a statement against your idea and misunderstood him?

I can only understand what someone actually says - not what they had intended to say - or what others assumed they had intended to say.

" who can struggle with a 11 frame standard brood box packed to the gunnells with bees as it is!"

"Packed to the gunnells(sic)" - certainly does NOT suggest he was talking about frames. Anyone who knows what a gunnel is, knows full well it is the top side planking of a boat - i.e. the rim of a container.

LJ

 

[Little John]

succinct

or stupid, childish ...

But par for the course.

 

[Fusion_power]

Can you tell the failing of all long hives? The one weakness they all share that makes them impractical for most beekeepers.

Wyatt Mangum has written a book covering his TBH and how he manages them.

http://www.tbhsbywam.com/

 

[Little John]

Little John
Very interesting. I am a newish beek and started on standard nationals which very promptly became double brood box hives. I didn't use a QE last year and the colonies quite often used the first super too. However- lots of frames to check and lots of heavy lifting.

Therein lies the problem - boxes to move and more frames to check. A few people on here are very quick to scoff, but sadly lacking when it comes to offering constructive solutions. There's also a marked reluctance to consider ideas which do not feature on the same hymn-sheet from which others are singing.

I can only speak for myself, but I really don't want to be constantly shifting boxes as some form of occupational therapy - so for me (not far off 70), single boxes are fast becoming sacrosanct. But how to get the necessary brood area ? Well, that implies either going 'deeper', going 'more' ... or both. I really don't see any other alternative when starting from the position of a single fixed-volume box.

As regards the weight issue, there's always mechanical aids if moving becomes necessary, or leave the boxes on pallets or a trailer. Moving hives doesn't have to be a box-shifting marathon.

But - everyone to their own - it's not mandatory either to follow the crowd, or become a latter-day Pied-Piper.

Supering of course is a separate issue, and can consist of shallow or divided boxes simply placed on top - but for me it's the brood box issue which needs reconciling, as I'm far more of a bee-farmer, than a honey-farmer.

LJ

 

[Little John]

Can you tell the failing of all long hives? The one weakness they all share that makes them impractical for most beekeepers.

This thread is about an experimental 'National-Dadant' hive using 14"x14" frames which sits on a British National footprint. It is a fixed-volume vertical hive, NOT a Long Hive.
There is a possibility it might morph into 16-20 frames, but that's only a 'maybe'.

Wyatt Mangum has written a book covering his TBH and how he manages them.

This isn't a Top Bar Hive.

LJ

 

[Cussword]

I can only understand what someone actually says - not what they had intended to say or what others assumed they had intended to say.

" who can struggle with a 11 frame standard brood box packed to the gunnells with bees as it is!"

"Packed to the gunnells(sic)" - certainly does NOT suggest he was talking about frames. Anyone who knows what a gunnel is, knows full well it is the top side planking of a boat - i.e. the rim of a container.

LJ

Before he said the above, he said;
My own experiences with 14 x 12 frames is that although totally suitable for the highly prolific boom and bust hybrids, they are too big and heavy to handle for elderly or frail beekeepers....

That was the only thing that he mentioned lifting. I didn't assume that!

Or was what you quoted all you wanted to see ? Twice now.


.

 

[Fusion_power]

Should this format prove satisfactory over the course of two seasons, then I'll transfer them to a Deep Long Hive large enough to accomodate 20 such frames, and adjust the size of that box appropriately with a thermal divider.

First post says long hive.

Question was, "Can you tell the failing of all long hives?" It applies to Layens, TBH of whatever design, various Ukrainian chest type hives, etc.

 

[Finman]

Can you tell the failing of all long hives? The one weakness they all share that makes them impractical for most beekeepers.

Wyatt Mangum has written a book covering his TBH and how he manages them.

http://www.tbhsbywam.com/

Finland had 50 years ago lots of long hives. Nothing good in them. Now they are all burned. We have only Langstroths...