3 week swarm, no sign of laying queen

[ANDubuis]

This hive was the queenless portion of a walkaway split (13 April). Unfortunately, I had to move it during the process. I observed capped queen cells on the 22nd of April when I moved it.

On 9th may, the hive swarmed.



I captured the swarm, placed it in a hive with some old comb and foundation.

Today, 27th May, the bees remain in the box and have built comb, collected honey and pollen, but there are no signs of a laying queen. Going to put a test frame of eggs in tomorrow.

What’s going on here?

All comments appreciated!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Did you reduce the queen cells in the split? Sounds as if you didn’t and they swarmed leaving behind another virgin in the split?
What’s the situation in the hive they swarmed from?
What’s the weather been like for mating ?

 

[pargyle]

There's a few possibilities ...

The likely one (IMHO) is that you lost a prime swarm and what you caught is a caste with a virgin who hasn't yet mated ...

The other is that you didn't get the queen in the swarm - was she marked and did you see her ?

The other is that the queen who swarmed either failed for some reason or was damaged when you put them into the hive.

Your test frame might tell you whether they are without a queen and desperate to build one ... but ... if they don't build queen cells you might have wasted the brood. Have you considered just cutting out a piece of comb with eggs on it and grafting it into the middle of one of the frames they have - better to lose a few square inches of brood rather than a whole frame on what may turn out to be a lost cause.

 

[pargyle]

Did you reduce the queen cells in the split? Sounds as if you didn’t and they swarmed leaving behind another virgin in the split?
What’s the situation in the hive they swarmed from?
What’s the weather been like for mating ?

Beat me to it ... same thought process ...

 

[Swift Nick]

I would say they swarmed with a virgin queen and due to poor weather she hasn’t mated or maybe didn’t make it back from mating.

 

[ANDubuis]

Did you reduce the queen cells in the split? Sounds as if you didn’t and they swarmed leaving behind another virgin in the split?
What’s the situation in the hive they swarmed from?
What’s the weather been like for mating ?

There were only two, I did not knock them back.

This was a smaller part of the split, and I don’t think I lost the prime swarm, as the swarm I caught was representative of the population in the box (but still a possibility)

The hive they swarmed from had a few bees left in it, and that’s about it.

The weather has been very poor!

I think the test frame of eggs is the way to go but certainly a possibility theres an unmated queen in there.

 

[ANDubuis]

There's a few possibilities ...

The likely one (IMHO) is that you lost a prime swarm and what you caught is a caste with a virgin who hasn't yet mated ...

The other is that you didn't get the queen in the swarm - was she marked and did you see her ?

The other is that the queen who swarmed either failed for some reason or was damaged when you put them into the hive.

Your test frame might tell you whether they are without a queen and desperate to build one ... but ... if they don't build queen cells you might have wasted the brood. Have you considered just cutting out a piece of comb with eggs on it and grafting it into the middle of one of the frames they have - better to lose a few square inches of brood rather than a whole frame on what may turn out to be a lost cause.

I didn’t observe the Queen when I caught the swarm, but their movements made me sure she was there.

There was no marked queen as this was the queenless portion of the split.

I have access to eggs in my other hives so am not worried about losing a frame of brood!

 

[madasafish]

I have at least two swarms with unmated Qs in a similar position.(Just starting Q rearing for this year so will kill Q and add QC.)

 

[ANDubuis]

I have at least two swarms with unmated Qs in a similar position.(Just starting Q rearing for this year so will kill Q and add QC.)

What have the timings been on yours?

 

[user 20297]

Did you reduce the queen cells in the split? Sounds as if you didn’t and they swarmed leaving behind another virgin in the split?

Wally Shaw's advice, (whose writings I've regularly seen recommended) says that there is no need to reduce the queen cells in a split as the colony "will make no attempt to swarm".

I hope that was good advice as I have a queen whose "due-date" is tomorrow.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Wally Shaw's advice, (whose writings I've regularly seen recommended) says that there is no need to reduce the queen cells in a split as the colony "will make no attempt to swarm".

Wally seems to not like tearing down QC's in any circumstances, it's something we've disagreed on more than once, in fact when challenged once by someone, he did admit he couldn't be sure you wouldn't get them swarming.

 

[user 20297]

Wally seems to not like tearing down QC's in any circumstances, it's something we've disagreed on more than once, in fact when challenged once by someone, he did admit he couldn't be sure you wouldn't get them swarming.

Oh, bloody hell...never trust the word of a Welshman. ....he says, running for cover.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oh, bloody hell...never trust the word of a Welshman. ....he says, running for cover.

Wally isn't Welsh - just an adopted Welshman

 

[user 20297]

Wally isn't Welsh - just an adopted Welshman

.....that explains it, but he must do a pretty good impression of a Welshman; I imagine there's quite a hurdle to get over in getting those adoption papers.

Anyway, I'm going to be a slightly anxious beekeeper over the next few days.

 

[madasafish]

What have the timings been on yours?

One swarmed late April.
The other swarmed approximately 3 weeks ago.

I have a third : a mini nuc where I removed Q early April, they raised a replacement. No sign of laying.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Wally seems to not like tearing down QC's in any circumstances, it's something we've disagreed on more than once, in fact when challenged once by someone, he did admit he couldn't be sure you wouldn't get them swarming.

I questioned him at length over this and he finally admitted that he doesn't really know because he doesn't look into these colonies for weeks. He simply leaves them to it. I tried it twice. The second time the repatriated queen got killed. I reduced the queen cells down to one anyway but it was so much of a faff I abandoned the whole thing.

 

[oliver90owner]

The OP has no location details - could be anywhere! Walk away splits are a beekeeping cop-out, IMO. The middle of April this year could be good, but likely a poor choice if virtually anywhere in the UK.

The experience of the OP may be so minimal that they are trying to run before they have even learned to walk.

Reading carefully, what the OP posted at 0839 yesterday, leads me to think that the original colony was split into several parts (more than two).

My advice is to leave them alone, for them to make the best of a bad job. Further tampering is likely to lead to more trouble...

 

[BeeJam]

, he did admit he couldn't be sure you wouldn't get them swarming.

When can you ever be sure of anything where bees are concerned?

 

[ANDubuis]

The OP has no location details - could be anywhere! Walk away splits are a beekeeping cop-out, IMO. The middle of April this year could be good, but likely a poor choice if virtually anywhere in the UK.



The experience of the OP may be so minimal that they are trying to run before they have even learned to walk.

Reading carefully, what the OP posted at 0839 yesterday, leads me to think that the original colony was split into several parts (more than two).

My advice is to leave them alone, for them to make the best of a bad job. Further tampering is likely to lead to more trouble...

I am in London, and nobody could have predicted the poor weather run we have had.
The original hive was split in 2, not in 3 or more as you have managed to deduce.

How are walkaway splits a cop out?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am in London, and nobody could have predicted the poor weather run we have had.
The original hive was split in 2, not in 3 or more as you have managed to deduce.

How are walkaway splits a cop out?

I think what Rab means is that it's a simple way to avoid checking your hive regularly to manage natural swarming. It saves labour but you are taking a heck of a chance with British weather being as fickle as it is. Better work with the bees rather than trying to save yourself time and effort. They work fine where the climate is consistently good.