14 * 12 Hoffman frames

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steve_e

House Bee
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East Sussex
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I put a 14 * 12 BB together yesterday (my first) and bought 11 Hoffman self-spacing frames which the supplier said were the only type available for the 14 * 12.

I wasn't aware of this but the Hoffman frames seem to self-space at a slightly narrower width than the plastic narrow ends, which has left me with a big space once the 11 frames are fitted. I probably should have known this before I started, but I'm now not sure what people do with Hoffman frames. Do you put a 12th frame in - there's comfortably room for one. Or do you normally fill it up with a spacer/insert thing?
 
I'm not that experienced, but the advice I got on the course was to use 11 frames and a dummy board/spacer which makes inspections easier as the dummy board can be taken out and somewhat placed anywhere without worrying about the content of a frame. I always check mine for the queen but wouldn't expect her on there.
 
I'm not that experienced, but the advice I got on the course was to use 11 frames and a dummy board/spacer which makes inspections easier as the dummy board can be taken out and somewhat placed anywhere without worrying about the content of a frame. I always check mine for the queen but wouldn't expect her on there.

I just started beekeeping this week and put a super frame in the midle of my BB. You dont have to be advanced to do it.
 
Primary lesson in beekeeping.


Expect the queen to be ANYWHERE.

PH
 
Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like a good suggestion to put a normal brood or super frame in. It would need a big fat dummy board to fill up the gap.

I'm interested to know why the hoffman spacing is different though? I thought the spacing was set to conform to 'bee space' (or double bee space to allow double ranks of bees between frames). And I thought bee space was critical - in which case what is the difference between a narrow plastic spacer space and the hoffman bee space space? If you see what I mean...
 
"t would need a big fat dummy board to fill up the gap"

dummy boards don't need to fill voids. they just stop the bees building another comb parallel to last. think what happens when installing a nuc in a brood box -5+ frames, dummy board, space.
 
Yes I take your point - although I seem to have bees that like to fill up any void I might accidentally or deliberately leave in a hive. I can see them pole vaulting the dummy board and filling up the space with wild comb - although hopefully the brand new 14 * 12 space above might be more attractive to them!
 
My hive is pretty full at the moment (need to AS them) and when I open them there are a lot of bees in the void next to the dummy board, but no brace comb whatsoever - I think you'll be OK.
 
Just stick another frame in ,the bees will appreciate the extra comb space and drawing out the wax will help control the swarming impulse.They'll probably only fill it with stores.
 
Sounds good to me - I may start with a dummy board and add an extra frame if they seem to be filling it up quickly. :)

Thanks both.
 
i use hoffman frames with plastic ends on, as i suspect we could be making smaller bees without the plastic spacing, just a thought, so i use 11 frames with a board also helps with not rolling/squashing bees that are normally on 2 sides of a frame.
 
I did wonder about using the plastic spacers with the hoffman frames Adrian.

I still don't understand why the space between frames (self-spacing or plastic spacers) isn't standard. I'd have thought that was quite important in the same way as 7/16" is important...
 
I did wonder about using the plastic spacers with the hoffman frames Adrian.

I still don't understand why the space between frames (self-spacing or plastic spacers) isn't standard. I'd have thought that was quite important in the same way as 7/16" is important...

the hoffman 35mm is a continental frame width used for 10 hoffmans in a langstroth hive and fits very well to the langstroth

english hoffmans made by EH Taylors of welwyn were 37mm and fitted well with 36.5mm plastic spacers once the wood seasoned

but since Taylors were taken over the firms that now make them only use the continental 35mm measurement or even 33mm
 
I did wonder about using the plastic spacers with the hoffman frames Adrian.

I still don't understand why the space between frames (self-spacing or plastic spacers) isn't standard. I'd have thought that was quite important in the same way as 7/16" is important...

the hoffman 35mm is a continental frame width used for 10 hoffmans in a langstroth hive and fits very well to the langstroth

english hoffmans made by EH Taylors of welwyn were 37mm called DN4 or 5 and ED5(14x12s) and fitted well with 36.5mm plastic/metal spacers once the wood seasoned

but since Taylors were taken over the firms that now make hoffmans use the 35mm measurement or even 33mm

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsframesides.html
 
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Aha. Thanks very much for that explanation - all makes sense now!
 
...although (and if I'm getting boring feel free to just ignore me) the varying space between any two sheets of foundation does mean that the bees have to decide whether to make the cells a particular size and decrease the moving space for two bees between the two sides, or vice versa. Which is normally the result

I understand Adrian's point above now, that maybe the bees end up smaller in a hive with hoffman spacing. Is this what might happen?
 
...although (and if I'm getting boring feel free to just ignore me) the varying space between any two sheets of foundation does mean that the bees have to decide whether to make the cells a particular size and decrease the moving space for two bees between the two sides, or vice versa. Which is normally the result

I understand Adrian's point above now, that maybe the bees end up smaller in a hive with hoffman spacing. Is this what might happen?

as i understand it the bees will draw the comb minimum of long enough for a bee of the size of the cells (you can decrease bee size by making the cells a bit smaller, in stages, but not by much as it gets difficult for the girls to make the cell if they are too big for it themselves) (oddly they will make the comb cell longer if they have the chance, but this wont effect bee size... if it's too short a cell, they simply won't lay in it and it becomes stores only)

with he same bees cell depths will be the same (they will only become shortened with a decrease in cell diameter once they are being built by these smaller bees). the hoffman spacing does not allow for two bees to walk past each other as easily on opposite sides of the frame, there has to be a degree of avoiding one another. the manley spacing allows for two bees to sit directly opposite one another and fan their wings comfortably.

the hoffman is better for fitting more brood into a smaller space, the bees manage to maintain the temp ok summer but come winter the bees can't huddle as closely to maintain their warmth in colder climes (south UK is ok), and things are generally less efficient as bees are constantly passing one another to feed brood/ deliver/collect from the super etc. as Adrian pointed out hoffmans also lead to more rolling/squishing on inspection, use the extra space you have to move frames clear away form one another before pulling out, then push back together horizontally slowly to allow bees to align themselves. then use the dummy board to hold the space.

hoffmans also decrease drone count (a bit) as it makes it difficult for the bees to cap the cell into their little walking space. Manly is closer the natural gap bees leave, and has been said to decrease varroa count as if they fall off a bees back there is at least a chance it won't hit another bee's body before the mesh floor) however hoffmans supposed to be better for nosema levels.. and allows a lesser number of bees to maintain the brood (they can't cover both sides so don't feel they need to) allowing more bees to forrage, if weather is v bad tho they sometimes can't keep the temperature stable enough leading to chalk brood.

if you're not careful to scrape the propolys off frequently the shoulders of the hoffmans will end up growing and you'll move towards manley anyways. the shoulders allow a much larger surface for propylis to build up, which is more difficult to remove it from.. so your big gap wont be so bad in a few months.


edited forgot to say... make the gap too big though and they'll prefer to put stores in it, make uneven depth comb which will lead to more rolling/crashing deaths. so eg in supers don't space them too far apart unless you plan to empty of bees before harvesting)
 
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