Gas vap worth it ?

I think I have mad cow disease now.. or head damage..not to worry I will sleep well knowing my bees have nie on no varroa.

maz0 said:

Whole fiasco reminds me of when sodium chlorate was banned

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Slightly different reason - it is a precursor for home made explosives

Karol said:

Mad cow disease resulted in hundreds of thousands of infected cattle resulting in over 4 million cattle being killed. I would define that as an epidemic.

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And you'd be wrong - because that is an Epizootic

An epidemic is a disease affecting humans - humans don't catch BSE (the clue is in the word 'Bovine')

Karol said:

Glucose does sublime as does HMF.

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All solid materials will have a small vapour pressure. The ones that we consider as sublimable reach a partial pressure equal to atmospheric pressure before their melting point is reached, so they effectively boil before they melt.

That paper concludes by saying:


So in practice the quantity of glucose that sublimes during vaping will be miniscule. The rate of decomposition will be far greater than the rate of evaporation (from the liquid phase as glucose melts at ~ 150 C).

jenkinsbrynmair said:

And you'd be wrong - because that is an Epizootic

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Always happy to be corrected. My understanding was that epizootics don't affect humans. BSE/TSE is transmissible to humans and therefore may be epidemic subject to prevalence.

An epidemic is a disease affecting humans - humans don't catch BSE (the clue is in the word 'Bovine')

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BSE/TSE may not be contagious but it is infectious:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/creutzfeldt-jakob-disease-cjd/causes/

Anyway, the purpose of raising BSE/TSE was not because I believe there to be anything other than a hypothetical infinitesimally small risk as a consequence of treating hives with OA, rather that it is a regulatory requirement that ingredients used in licensed medicines must be BSE/TSE free. So there is a cost and an impact on license holders to achieve the necessary standard for compliance, one which beekeepers would not be expected to know about.

That said it does highlight contamination risks in unlicensed non medicinal OA (pesticides, fungicides, arsenic and cyanide compounds are far more likely contaminants) and the duty of care expected of bee keepers by the regulators to use the licensed products to keep hives and honey consumers safe.

Repwoc said:

All solid materials will have a small vapour pressure. The ones that we consider as sublimable reach a partial pressure equal to atmospheric pressure before their melting point is reached, so they effectively boil before they melt.

That paper concludes by saying:

"The vapour pressures obtained here confirm the very non-volatile nature of these materials and also reveal how high their enthalpies of vaporization are."​

So in practice the quantity of glucose that sublimes during vaping will be miniscule. The rate of decomposition will be far greater than the rate of evaporation (from the liquid phase as glucose melts at ~ 150 C).

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Understood but what temperatures does the gasvap operate at? Probably a lot higher than 150°C.

I was very careful to mention HMF which as a decomposition product of glucose is 'volatile' and will enter the hive on vaporising any OA product containing glucose at high temperatures.

maz0 said:

I hope that was sarcasm Karol

Whole fiasco reminds me of when sodium chlorate was banned, a perfectly fine cheap as chips weed killer. Now all you can buy is over priced Roundup. Find the man with the fat wallet and you will find the source of the problem

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The regulators who make the rules are not people with fat wallets. The bar for licensing is so high that only those people with fat wallets can afford to licence products.

Karol said:

Understood but what temperatures does the gasvap operate at? Probably a lot higher than 150°C.

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Agreed - that's why I said from the liquid phase. The temperatures reached are probably higher than 200 °C so the glucose will decompose.

An issue with the gas-vap is lack of temperature control, or even any indication of the temperature. Is that the same with the electrical sublimators? I guess they may rely on providing a controlled amount of power to the heating element which will result in an expected temperature range after a fixed time. That is tricky to do with the gas-vap.

I was re looking at Gas-vap on weds, thinking I must be only person thinking about it at this time of year lol. I have been interested in this device from the first postings that were put on here of the first device and the plans etc.

I placed an order yesterday, I think it is worth it (to the original posters point)

There were 2 things I satisfied myself about.

Firstly the gas mask required. I currently use a varrox under the open mesh floor, and have never felt the need for PPE, other than being really, really careful (ex analytical chemist talking here) I sense and see that gas-vap is a lot less controllable. I have ordered the mask mentioned earlier in this thread.

Secondly, and I think this was mentioned sometime ago about what actually happens to apibioxil, and to that extend the Oxalic Acid. If you heat OA to high temperatures it breaks down to CO2 and water. With gas-vap being higher temps than varrox, are the clouds of mist, just that, water, or does some of the OA sublimate and some break down? I haven't really found the answer to that question

https://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=79788.0

At temps over 157 deg C "partial decomposition"

http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0529.htm

So does the closed system of gas-vap work. Well folk on here say they have good results, so the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I will see if it works for me, but I will be using the lowest temp I can on the burner!

The sublimox had temp regulation so as you use it when it's reached temp....can't remember exact temp

polomadh said:

I was re looking at Gas-vap on weds, thinking I must be only person thinking about it at this time of year lol. I have been interested in this device from the first postings that were put on here of the first device and the plans etc.

I placed an order yesterday, I think it is worth it (to the original posters point)

There were 2 things I satisfied myself about.

Firstly the gas mask required. I currently use a varrox under the open mesh floor, and have never felt the need for PPE, other than being really, really careful (ex analytical chemist talking here) I sense and see that gas-vap is a lot less controllable. I have ordered the mask mentioned earlier in this thread.

Secondly, and I think this was mentioned sometime ago about what actually happens to apibioxil, and to that extend the Oxalic Acid. If you heat OA to high temperatures it breaks down to CO2 and water. With gas-vap being higher temps than varrox, are the clouds of mist, just that, water, or does some of the OA sublimate and some break down? I haven't really found the answer to that question

https://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=79788.0

At temps over 157 deg C "partial decomposition"

http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0529.htm

So does the closed system of gas-vap work. Well folk on here say they have good results, so the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I will see if it works for me, but I will be using the lowest temp I can on the burner!

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Discussed this recently on another thread...perhaps as a chemist you might have more insight into this or at least understand the research papers.....heating OA to higher temperatures than 157c creates formic acid, but its argued that it cant happen in an 'open heating' situation, which I assume would be related to both the pan style devices and the cup/spout devices. Maybe needs a closed/pressure vessel approach?

It's worth mentioning that from my research of the devices many of the pan style ones have no real temperature control ability either, some of them hitting over 250c which is way over required sublimation temperature, so whether its pan style or gasvap your still busting the required temp.

Get a longer spout for the gasvap and or position a damp rag over the entrance so only the spout fits into the hive, be aware of the wind and work away from it...with minor precautions id honestly be surprised if you even needed mask/goggles but it doesn't hurt to use. 5-15g ingested is fatal apparently, not sure what inhaled lethal dosage is!

Repwoc said:

Agreed - that's why I said from the liquid phase. The temperatures reached are probably higher than 200 °C so the glucose will decompose.

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Blow torches hit temperatures in excess of 1000°C! How that translates to the temperature that the OA is exposed to I have no idea.

An issue with the gas-vap is lack of temperature control, or even any indication of the temperature. Is that the same with the electrical sublimators? I guess they may rely on providing a controlled amount of power to the heating element which will result in an expected temperature range after a fixed time. That is tricky to do with the gas-vap.

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The licensed product has been tested for sublimation using electrical sublimators so users have a degree of confidence of what to expect. Gasvap is a punt in the dark with no supporting evidence other than anecdotal reports with no formal follow up on hive survival or safety of the honey produced either using the licensed product or unlicensed non medicinal OA which may or may not be pure.

Karol said:

The licensed product has been tested for sublimation using electrical sublimators so users have a degree of confidence of what to expect.

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What brand of electrical sublimators exactly? As I mentioned before there is a big variance in how the open pan sublimators reach temperatures, there is even ones using engine glow plugs threaded into the pan which can hit 1000c in seconds, same as the gasvap if using a heavy duty torch.... if the licensed product did 'test for sublimation using electrical sublimators' then it would have had to be all the ones available on the market at that time, and then followed up with all new releases to confirm continued suitability for use.

If someone used a new chinese ebay special electric pan sublimator, created formic acid and nuked their bee's and contaminated their honey, does that mean Apibioxal are to blame?

One of the reasons I was looking at the rothenberger torch was apart from being robust with a huge volume of gas it’s also rather precise with plenty of adjustment so can easily be run on a low flame. Not sure any would want to run it on full whack!!!!

maz0 said:

What brand of electrical sublimators exactly? As I mentioned before there is a big variance in how the open pan sublimators reach temperatures, there is even ones using engine glow plugs threaded into the pan which can hit 1000c in seconds, same as the gasvap if using a heavy duty torch.... if the licensed product did 'test for sublimation using electrical sublimators' then it would have had to be all the ones available on the market at that time, and then followed up with all new releases to confirm continued suitability for use.

If someone used a new chinese ebay special electric pan sublimator, created formic acid and nuked their bee's and contaminated their honey, does that mean Apibioxal are to blame?

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Potentially. Have a read of the summary of product characteristics:

https://theapiarist.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/API-Bioxal_SPC_807534.pdf

If you use the Chinese ebay special then Chemicals Laif would be on the hook if you could show that the Chinese ebay special had specific instructions on vaporising OA products. The difficulty here would be proving that the Chinese ebay special came from a bona-fide manufacturer and that you could revert to a legal jurisdiction to bring them to task if indeed the device were at fault. So using a non bona-fide sublimator potentially lets Chemicals Laif off the hook unless there were incontrovertible evidence of a defect with their Api-bioxal. Using gasvap as I understand it completely lets Chemicals Laif off the hook because the device is not a licensed means of administration (as stated in the SPC). To what extent gasvap is able to accept liability for colony losses as a result of treatment failure (either lack of efficacy or harm through side effects/poisoning/contamination) or wider public harm I have no idea. Does it carry public and strict product liability insurance? All of the emphasis would initially fall on the beekeeper including any harm done to consumers of their honey affected by for example poisoning through use of an unlicensed method of vaporisation.

So for example, I have no idea if the degradation of OA is influenced by what metal it is in contact with when it sublimes at different temperatures. Copper vs stainless steel? They will certainly have different redox potentials.

Using an unlicensed treatment at the end of the day is a roll of the dice. If the wrong numbers come up and someone gets hurt there's no mitigation. Get idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis from OA inhalation without using PPE as recommended in the SPC and I doubt your life cover will pay out!

Newbeeneil said:

Martin,
Did you never take risks as a kid? Like playing with fireworks in the local woods, making explosives out of fertiliser and sugar or riding motorbikes without a helmet on some rough site without a helmet? ��
I use the appropriate precautions whist operating the vap and wouldn't use it in proximity of others. I certainly wouldn't sell a device!

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Think you'll find it was Weed-killer (Sodium Chlorate)+Sugar, Fertiliser (potassium sulphate) was mixed with Diesel.
So long as you are aware of the risks (to yourself & innocent bystanders)

My Grandfather had Chemist's shop so we had access to everything on the shelves, Calcium carbide, Saltpetre, Sulphur, KMnO4 + various acids. He also had an extensive first aid kit.
Still have some Barium nitrate for Christmas Logs!

My point is that these vaporisers are illegal and don't come with any advice.

We knew that mixing Sodium chlorate & sugar could make a nice pop given the correct circumstances (I'm not sure that it's even available in crystal form anymore) , but it wasn't being advertised as a cureall by ignorant fools for amateurs to bodge onto a can of propane.

My ever-patient father found a Cwt. of Nitram (pure ammonium nitrate) in my bedroom once. I had laboriously wheeled it across the entire valley on my bike. His weed killer was long gone. The dud explosion mainly left a brown patch on the lawn. Detonators were always the issue.


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TryingToLetThemBee said:

mainly left a brown patch on the lawn.

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Get it right & can leave a couple of brown patches somewhere else too!

jenkinsbrynmair said:

I'm just upset I can't eat my favourite dessert any more, Rhubarb crumble, just in case I catch mad cow disease -

ever so slightly mad )

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Did you know that skin cancer has been linked to Icecream sales so be sure to stay clear of any Rhubarb Ice Cream as well!