Your thoughts on this breeder.

[beeno]

Wing morphometry has advanced, DNA testing, regardless of your opinion, is used in testing identity. I'm willing to accept scientific proof about my bees and the average for the general population.

You should provide the proof to substantiate your claims not sell counterfeit goods.

 

[Curly green finger's]

You cannot make unsubstantiated claims to sell Amm without DNA analysis. Looking at phenotype is not evidence.

What percentage would that be 60%
70%...when can we class them as Amm bees? 90%?

I have Italian mongrels with native bee traits.

 

[Curly green finger's]

You should provide the proof to substantiate your claims not sell counterfeit goods.

I think he has..
Q do you keep amms?

 

[beeno]

I think he has..
Q do you keep amms?

No. Do you? I would like to see the proof.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You cannot make unsubstantiated claims to sell Amm without DNA analysis. Looking at phenotype is not evidence.

Nobody is.
But in the same vein you shouldn't make unsubstanitated claims about the AMM percentage in DNA trials

 

[Curly green finger's]

No. Do you?

Im getting there yes.
Give me another few years maybe 5/10 years.
It takes time to be selective..

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You should provide the proof to substantiate your claims not sell counterfeit goods.

And to make allegations of that kind without any evidence of anyone doing such a thing is, at best, libel

 

[Curly green finger's]

No. Do you? I would like to see the proof.

Maybe one day u will in some years to come.

 

[beeno]

And to make allegations of that kind without any evidence of anyone doing such a thing is, at best, libel

I do not believe the consumer should have to provide the evidence of any claims made by a seller - caveat emptor. If you make claims you should provide the evidence to substantiate those claims otherwise it is misrepresentation. If you want to shout on the forum that you have/sell Amm then provide the proof, phenotype does not do it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I do not believe the consumer should have to provide the evidence of any claims made by a seller - caveat emptor. 'If you make claims you should provide the evidence' to substantiate those claims otherwise it is misrepresentation. If you want to shout on the forum that you have/sell Amm then provide the proof, phenotype does not do it.

I think however that you should furnish the evidence before making the allegations on here.
'If you make claims then you should provide the evidence', so let's have no more of this nonsense shall we?

 

[BugsInABox]

phenotype does not do it.

Out of interest why not? Is there a genetic fingerprint of what is real native AMM, genuine question. Are AMM defined in some way?

 

[pargyle]

I've listened to his talk (don't like to waste a recommendation) and as soon as it finished, I wanted to get your take on this - but I see you've already addressed it!

Here's what came up in the questions after the talk:
Q: Colonies in trees are well-insulated without ventilation - so why do we do the opposite?
RP: (much hesitation) I do understand the question - I really don't know the answer.

I don't think he really has a 'view' or considered position on this; more a case of, 'I've always done it this way, and it works for me.'

[It wasn't you, Philip, who asked the question by any chance?]

No not me ... Roger does have a few fixed ideas ... most of what he does is based on his own observations and he will change (and has changed) on those occasions where he has proved something to his own satisfaction - perhaps he's either not got round to playing with insulation or he just doesn't accept that there is sufficent benefit to try. You never know .. there's still time. I can forgive him for that one - he's nearly as seasoned as some of the hives he owns.

 

[Swarm]

You should provide the proof to substantiate your claims not sell counterfeit goods.

You really shouldn't sling accusations around. I can provide the proof for our bees, DNA analysis done, I already mentioned % figures.
When did I sell any bees as Amm?

 

[pargyle]

Hi Pargyle,
I wonder, does he have any problems or any issue with his bees because he houses them in thin walled hives and with less insulation?

I don't know. He's been very concerned about the quality of queens and is convinced (and has been for some years) that there is something wrong ... no solutions just observations.

 

[Newbeeneil]

No not me ... Roger does have a few fixed ideas ... most of what he does is based on his own observations and he will change (and has changed) on those occasions where he has proved something to his own satisfaction - perhaps he's either not got round to playing with insulation or he just doesn't accept that there is sufficent benefit to try. You never know .. there's still time. I can forgive him for that one - he's nearly as seasoned as some of the hives he owns.

He is very against "molly coddling" bees and sees insulation as such but he has come round to things ........ after all he engaged Derek M to talk at NHS. That must have smarted

 

[pargyle]

He is very against "molly coddling" bees and sees insulation as such but he has come round to things ........ after all he engaged Derek M to talk at NHS. That must have smarted

He will get there eventually ....

 

[Apple]

You really shouldn't sling accusations around. I can provide the proof for our bees, DNA analysis done, I already mentioned % figures.
When did I sell any bees as Amm?

I know that a high percentage of my own bees are Cornish Amm... DNA nuclear and mitochondrial has been the proof of that.... via the B4 project.
However these bees do show all the traits associated with Amm.. frugal on stores, adaptation to local forage flows, good temper, honey producers in all conditions, low swarming tendency, good overwintering and flying and forageing in les than clement conditions and varroa resistance..... and morphometry .. wing discoidal shift towards the left, low cubital index...
ginger hairs etc etc
Most above 85% on the DNA scale... many of the other bees tested showing lower DNA but all of the above traits I would class as near native.

What is the problem???

 

[Antipodes]

I don't know. He's been very concerned about the quality of queens and is convinced (and has been for some years) that there is something wrong ... no solutions just observations.

The most important things are genetics, nutrition, age of queen and disease management of course. Extra insulation is way down my list.

 

[beeno]

When did I sell any bees as Amm?

Well, we are on the same page then.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but what about planets?