Worker or queen?

[Curly green finger's]

Photo of a queen I think?
Apologies for the photos we only have candlelight up here, I will take some photos of the bee in question tomorrow in the day light.

 

[GuyNir]

Light isn’t great, but might well be a Q.

 

[gmonag]

Look at the back legs. If no corbiculae, then it's a Q.

 

[Curly green finger's]

She is from a nuc which was doing really well I added fondant and she has got stuck in it they have twindled to a grape fruit size colony no queen or brood some stores but not enough.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Look at the back legs. If no corbiculae, then it's a Q.

Good point, will do I'll get the looking glass out.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Queens thorax is hairless with a definite cleft in it

 

[B+.]

Queens thorax is hairless with a definite cleft in it

We'd all like to think so Dani. However, the bees don't always select the best larvae to nurse into queen bees. There is a continuum from that "perfect" queen at 12-18 hours all the way to worker at 3 days. Naturally, this means inter-caste "queens" can be raised that have some of the features of a queen but were too old to receive the nutrition that a perfect queen would have. They become runt "queens" - able to evade the keenest eye, slip through queen excluders and murder cells you are trying to raise in a "queenless" nuc.

 

[Curly green finger's]

We'd all like to think so Dani. However, the bees don't always select the best larvae to nurse into queen bees. There is a continuum from that "perfect" queen at 12-18 hours all the way to worker at 3 days. Naturally, this means inter-caste "queens" can be raised that have some of the features of a queen but were too old to receive the nutrition that a perfect queen would have. They become runt "queens" - able to evade the keenest eye, slip through queen excluders and murder cells you are trying to raise in a "queenless" nuc.

Do you think my photos are showing a runt queen Paul? If so then they must of superseded possibly?
I marked the queen in this nuc in Sept she was black like the photo but somewhat bigger.
They were a strong nuc and have been one of the first to forage over the winter and looked a strong colony.
last Thursday I shock the remanding bees on to a piece of ply covered in a sheet and watched them beg there way into another hive, if I would of left them they would of dwindled and perished not much else I could do really.
They were treated for varroa in early Sept with OAV and I vaped them on the 16th of December they didn't need feeding because of the really good ivy flow we had last autumn.

 

[B+.]

Do you think my photos are showing a runt queen Paul? If so then they must of superseded possibly?
I marked the queen in this nuc in Sept she was black like the photo but somewhat bigger.
They were a strong nuc and have been one of the first to forage over the winter and looked a strong colony.
last Thursday I shock the remanding bees on to a piece of ply covered in a sheet and watched them beg there way into another hive, if I would of left them they would of dwindled and perished not much else I could do really.
They were treated for varroa in early Sept with OAV and I vaped them on the 16th of December they didn't need feeding because of the really good ivy flow we had last autumn.

It's difficult to tell from the photo Mark. They often curl up like the one in your photo quite quickly after death. I'm not saying this is what has happened. I'm just raising it as a possibility.

 

[Curly green finger's]

It's difficult to tell from the photo Mark. They often curl up like the one in your photo quite quickly after death. I'm not saying this is what has happened. I'm just raising it as a possibility.

They do strivel up I haven't got the looking glass out yet but she is very different to the dead workers you can see she would of been bigger.
I will take some better photos and post them on this thread and take some photos of the workers as a comparison
Odd though after I moved them and feed fondant they declined.
Did I damage the original queen when I marked her in Sept and they made an attempt to raise another queen who knows..
I didn't notice many nurse bees in the cluster that was left either.

 

[Ian123]

The pics aren’t great, bees drowned in syrup often get that slightly swelled look am sure that’ll be the case.

 

[Curly green finger's]

The pics aren’t great, bees drowned in syrup often get that slightly swelled look am sure that’ll be the case.

Well I've gone through my list of isolating the causes.
And they have either superseded and produced a runt queen and she got stuck to the fondant.
It's ashame because the original queen was lovely I've lost two colonys now.

 

[Murox]

They do strivel up I haven't got the looking glass out yet but she is very different to the dead workers you can see she would of been bigger.
I will take some better photos and post them on this thread and take some photos of the workers as a comparison
Odd though after I moved them and feed fondant they declined.
Did I damage the original queen when I marked her in Sept and they made an attempt to raise another queen who knows..
I didn't notice many nurse bees in the cluster that was left either.

Maybe that was the root cause, sad in any case. - did you check the back legs yet ?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Legs look like number 2 in pauls picture (b+).
Im working so ill grab a photo in the day light later.

 

[Erichalfbee]

We'd all like to think so Dani. However, the bees don't always select the best larvae to nurse into queen bees. There is a continuum from that "perfect" queen at 12-18 hours all the way to worker at 3 days. Naturally, this means inter-caste "queens" can be raised that have some of the features of a queen but were too old to receive the nutrition that a perfect queen would have. They become runt "queens" - able to evade the keenest eye, slip through queen excluders and murder cells you are trying to raise in a "queenless" nuc.

Thanks, Those pictures are very useful

 

[B+.]

Thanks, Those pictures are very useful

I suspect that a lot of the problems we see reported on this forum are caused by inter-caste queens. They are very difficult to spot and, on more than one occasion, have killed my cells or introduced queen. I'm guessing that at least some of the problems reported by Roger Patterson {BIBBA) are a consequence of the way they rear queens. If you give the bees any choice at all, they will usually choose an older larva IME - after all, to them it is an emergency!

 

[Curly green finger's]

I suspect that a lot of the problems we see reported on this forum are caused by inter-caste queens. They are very difficult to spot and, on more than one occasion, have killed my cells or introduced queen. I'm guessing that at least some of the problems reported by Roger Patterson {BIBBA) are a consequence of the way they rear queens. If you give the bees any choice at all, they will usually choose an older larva IME - after all, to them it is an emergency!

This is a first for me Paul I would never of known Im glad you posted the pictures thankyou.
Cuttings are doing well by the way all growing nicely

 

[B+.]

This is a first for me Paul I would never of known Im glad you posted the pictures thankyou.
Cuttings are doing well by the way all growing nicely

A little off topic: that's good to hear Mark. The Buddleia is "Black Knight" (Simons favourite - they smell heavenly!) and the black currants are "Ben Sarek". I hope they weren't too damaged in the post. I can't remember if I put any red currants in too - they're easy to root in a bucket of water overwinter.

 

[Curly green finger's]

A little off topic: that's good to hear Mark. The Buddleia is "Black Knight" (Simons favourite - they smell heavenly!) and the black currants are "Ben Sarek". I hope they weren't too damaged in the post. I can't remember if I put any red currants in too - they're easy to root in a bucket of water overwinter.

Yes two of both they are looking good a couple of the shoots had broken of on the buddleia but they are growing and shooting from some of the nodes.

 

[oliver90owner]

... no queen or brood ...

Queenlessness is not a function of there being a dead queen found in, or close to, the hive.]